The Scottish War Memorials Project

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1447 Location: Aberdeenshire

Adam

They appear to be the same man, but both records have errors.

He was Joseph D Graham SE/4272 R.A.V.C. who died on 30th August 1916. I suspect the date on the CWGC listing is a scanning error. This is being checked.

SNWM took details from SDGW.
SDGW have him born Langholm and enlisted at Galashiels. SNWM have repeated the wrong service number given by them SE/4278
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk

Adam Brown · Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:51 pm Post subject:

Jim

Many thanks for confirming it is the same man.

Regards

Adam

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1447 Location: Aberdeenshire

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1447 Location: Aberdeenshire

Adam

I rather think they are the same man but it is not possible to be absolutely certain due to differing information from various sources. There could be two men.

CWGC have a Pte SE/4272 J Graham, Army Veterinary Corps died Egypt on 3rd August 1916. I have confirmed this is the date CWGC were given. No details were provided by his NOK.

SNWM have a Pte SE/4278 Joseph Graham, b Langholm died Egypt 30th August 1916.

SDGW have Pte SE/4278 Joseph Graham, b Langholm, e Galashiels, Royal Army Veterinary Corps died Egypt 30th August 1916.

Thus, we have a 2 x J Walker in the same unit, died in the same theatre but on different dates with different numbers.

An MIC for a Joseph D Walker shows he was Pte SE/4272 R.A.V.C. and the card has Died 30/8/1916 on it. He arrived in theatre 3 ( Egypt) on 16th March 1915.

Only one death of a Joseph Walker is recorded at GROS in 1916 and unfortunately the details do not resolve the mystery.
R.A.V.C. Pte SE/4278, age 31 born Scotland died 30th August 1916 in Egypt ( Appendix abcess).
Had the number been 4272 CWGC might have changed their record, but proof positive is required. In the circumstances they would leave them, as is.

I feel sure the GROS number is wrong because that R.A.V.C number was issued to a George A Buswell who served in France.

If you come across any family notification / medal paperwork, etc it could be looked at again
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk

Adam Brown · Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:46 am Post subject:

Jim

Thanks for providing so much detail. In situations like this I will go with the GROS date of death. That matches the SNWM / SDGW details which tie that J Graham in with Langholm.

Hopefully in the future someone can find the details needed to confirm it is the same man or if there were two J Grahams.

I think there is more to say on this matter but I will start another thread in the Non-Commemoratons section.

Regards

Adam

Stewartry · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 234 Location: nr Nottingham

Re Joseph Graham

It may be worth emailing the reference department at the Ewart Library, Dumfries. The Dumfries & Galloway Standard is indexed, so a search for Graham, Joseph will show whether there was a report of his death or a death notice in August/September 1916 - either of these should sort out the date discrepancy.

Cheers,

Stuart
_________________
www.sonsofgalloway.org.uk
5th KOSB
Stewartry RoH
ATC Auchencairn book

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1447 Location: Aberdeenshire

Adam

SNWM details should reflect those of SDGW since they used them to compile the SNWM registers, so that is really one source and not two. The key to the man's service is the number, unfortunately they do not tie up.

Stuart
An Obit or Dumfries & Galloway Standard report would not provide " proof positive " for CWGC to ammend their records which currently shows the details they were given in the 1920's.

Sadly, this is one of those cases that may never be clarified. Official paperwork, if it still exists, from the family would be the best way forward.
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk

Stewartry · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 234 Location: nr Nottingham

Jim,

I wasn't intending the info to be used for submission to the CWGC, I am aware of its strict requirement for official sources. Rather, any info from the newspaper will be just for personal knowledge of the true date.

Stuart
_________________
www.sonsofgalloway.org.uk
5th KOSB
Stewartry RoH
ATC Auchencairn book

Adam Brown · Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:25 am Post subject:

Folks

I have started a thread on Joseph Graham in the Non-Commemorations section, see here

Until we know the exact date of his death and his number can all further discussions about him move to that thread rather than this one to avoid duplication.

Thanks

Adam

milmor_1 · Joined: 03 Jun 2009 Posts: 118 Location: Ireland

This soldier is listed on the Memorial;

SCOTT, William Private 2155 7th Bn Royal Munster Fusiliers
Born: Langholm, Dumfries Resided: Pontefract, Yorkshire Enlisted: Pontefract, Yorkshire.
Age: 28 Date of Death: 26/08/1915 Cause: Killed in action.
Family Notes: Son of, John and Elizabeth Scott, of South Bailey Gate, Pontefract; husband of Nellie Johnson (Formerly Scott), of 53, South Bailey Gate, Pontefract.
Grave/Memorial: Panel 185 to 190. Helles Memorial.
Irish War Memorial Records Page No: Volume VII, Page 334.

spoons · Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:01 pm Post subject:

Name: McGOWAN, SIDNEY
Initials: S
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Captain
Regiment/Service: King's Own Scottish Borderers
Unit Text: 5th Bn.
Secondary Regiment: North Staffordshire Regiment
Secondary Unit Text: attd. 1st/6th Bn.
Date of Death: 25/05/1917
Awards: M C
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Bay 6.
Memorial: ARRAS MEMORIAL

From The War Illustrated, Volume 9, page 3228

CAPTAIN SYDNEY McGOWAN, M.C., killed in action, was son of Mr.
William McGowan, of Broomholm Place, Langholm. A trooper in the
Lanarkshire Yeomanry, he joined up with his regiment on the outbreak of
war, and afterwards transferred to the King's Own Scottish Borderers, in
which regiment he obtained his commission as a second-lieutenant. Later,
he was attached first to the North Staffordshire and then to the South
Staffordshire Regiment, where he rose rapidly to the rank of captain. In
September, 1916, he was decorated with the Military Cross by the King,
for bravery in a bombing raid, and it was in a bombing raid that he lost
his life In May, 1917.

There is also a photo accompanying the article which is quite poor in my electronic copy.

spoons · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:02 pm Post subject:

UKNIWM have an error, they have spelt it LANGHOLME instead of LANGHOLM. I have mailed a correction.

\Paul

DelBoy · Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:50 am Post subject: Pte. John Scott