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Special Memorial for men buried in Holy Cross, Dumfries

 
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4816
Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:11 pm    Post subject: Special Memorial for men buried in Holy Cross, Dumfries Reply with quote

Adam kindly sent me http://www.itv.com/news/border/update/2012-11-30/servicemen-named/

This relates to a special memorial for 3 men, buried in Holy Cross churchyard, whose graves cannot be maintained and who therefore have a 'special memorial' in St Andrews graveyard posted at http://scottishwargraves.phpbbweb.com/viewtopic.php?t=364&mforum=scottishwargraves

There are plans afoot to reinstate gravestones on the graves. Russell Brown MP is appealing for information about the men and I sent the following mail to him....................

"I note with interest your item on Border news about the 3 men buried in Holy Cross burial ground in Dumfries. As a member of the Scottish Military Research Group I recorded the official 'alternative commemoration' in St Andrews cemetery in 2008. http://scottishwargraves.phpbbweb.com/viewtopic.php?t=364&mforum=scottishwargraves

As you probably know, each person who qualifies under the rules of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission is entitled to an official place of commemoration. Normally this is on the grave or (for those whose bodies were never found) on a larger memorial such as Thiepval, the Menin Gate or Brookwood. Exceptionally, even where a grave is known, it is not possible to maintain the grave so an alternative 'special memorial' is created. This happens for graves in places like Iraq, and in this case, the one in St Andrews cemetery. I am very pleased to hear that the actual graves are now to be marked (and presumably the special memorial will be removed). I would very much like to represent the Scottish Military Research Group at any re-dedication of the graves so perhaps you would be kind enough to let me know of any such ceremony?

Andrew Carnochan is listed on the Dumfries war memorial, he was born in Troqueer and in addition to the information which you already have I have found "Sister: Maggie, 114, North Queensferry St, Dumfries, Scotland".

Thomas Donnelly is not listed on any local memorial that I have been able to find which might suggest that his wife is from this area whereas he is not - a search on his wife's maiden name may be more fruitful. The Scottish National War Memorial records that Thomas was born in Annan but he is not listed on the Annan war memorial.

Augustine (or Augustus) Hullin is listed on the Dumfries war memorial but as KOSB and not RSF. He was born in Bradford.

Unfortunately I have no other information on them."

If anyone can add anything, please let us know.

\Paul
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Kenneth Morrison



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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Location: Rockcliffe Dalbeattie

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ANDREW CARNOCHAN, Distinguished Service Medal. Able Seaman J/32306. HMS Marlborough, Royal Navy. Died 3 March 1919 aged 19.
Andrew was born in 1899 in Maxwelltown, Troqueer, Kirkcudbrightshire.
Son of William Carnochan of 114 Queensberry Street, Dumfries.
He was awarded the DSM for his actions as a member of "D" Company, Seaman Storming Party on the 23 April 1918 during the Zeebrugge Raid.
The award was announced in the London Gazette 19/7/1918 p.8592.
Andrew died of illness (Influenza?) and his death was registered at East Stonehouse, Plymouth, Devon.

THOMAS DONNELLY, Private 7761. 9th Battalion, Royal Scots Fusiliers. Died 10 October 1915 aged 53.
I can find very little on this man regarding his date or place of birth and/or place of death.
He was 22 and living in Pine Apple Close, High Street, Dumfries when he married Mary Jane Currie, 21, of Friars Vennel, Dumfries on 27 April 1883 at the RC Chapel Church in Dumfries. (The register has his name as DONNELY.)

AUGUSTINE HULLIN, Private 14270. 1st Battalion, Royal Scots Fusiliers. Died 10 April 1917 aged 42.
Born (as Augustine) 1874 in Knaresborough, West Yorkshire.
In 1901 he was a labourer living at 42 Loreburn Street, Dumfries with his widowed mother Margaret and his sister Mary. His brother Joseph and his wife Catherine lived at the same address. His father, Daniel, had died in 1887 in Dumfries.
His death (indexed as Augustus Hullen on FreeBMD) was registered at Southampton, Hampshire.
(SNWM, SDGW and his Medal Card all have Augustus Hullin)
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Kenneth Morrison



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On an historical note, Andrew Carnochan's ship:
In early 1919, during the Russian Civil War the battleship HMS Marlborough was on duty in the Black Sea and, on orders of King George V rescued his aunt, Dowager Empress Maria Feodorovna, and other members of the Russian Imperial Family, including Grand Duke Nicholas and Prince Felix Yusupov, sailing from Yalta and bound for Constantinople (Istanbul) on 11 April.
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:51 pm    Post subject: Special Memorial for men buried in Holy Cross, Dumfries Reply with quote

I was intrigued that these men were buried in a Roman Catholic burial ground but now commemorated by Special Memorial in another nearby.

I appears that their graves became unmaintainable in the early 1960's and the only thing CWGC could do was erect the Special Memorial in St. Andrews.
The original area was grassed over and a small park created leaving two graves in the middle of the grassed area and the third under a flower bed.
I understand that the original graves are not likely to be marked, rather a new Special Memorial will be erected in the former Holy Cross churchyard, something which was obviously not possible 50 years ago.

The existing Special Memorial at St. Andrews will be removed, since their only place of commemoration will again be at Holy Cross.

If anyone has details of NOK for Carnochan, Donnelly and Hullin it would be best to pass this to CWGC in the first instance. They will likely make an appeal via their website in time, as they are doing for other similar re-commemorations now.

CWGC are trying to restore a number of similar commemorations throughout the UK to their original location in the lead up to 2014-2018. This is not an unusual occurence and there are a number in Scotland. CWGC try to restore change forced upon them, where they can, but it is not always possible to commemorate at the grave, or near to it.

As far as any ceremony is concerned, this is not something which CWGC would organise, but may be set in place by a local third party.
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
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Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As the local MP has made a public appeal, I think he may request a ceremony of sorts - that would be fairly usual for a politician IMHO (for the publicity). I got the impression from the report that individual gravestones would be used but I admit a special memorial might make more sense. I hope they do something significant with Holy Cross burial ground though, I have visited it a couple of times and could well believe that the only others who visit are dog walkers as the whole area is fairly well covered with dog faeces.

\Paul
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
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Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I visited this cemetery today and the new memorial has still not been erected. I have written to CWGC to ask when it will be put in place.

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Merseman



Joined: 07 Aug 2013
Posts: 282
Location: Duns, Berwickshire

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find this an interesting case... Have people come across other instances of the CWGC having to declare graves 'unmaintainable' in such circumstances?

At the time of the Great War provision for cemeteries and graveyards came from a mixture of private companies, the Church of Scotland through parish churchyards and those around 'quoad sacra' chapels, denominational churchyards or cemeteries - mainly Roman Catholic/Episcopalian - plus local authorities (usually burghs).

In 1925, in advance of the reunion of the CofS & United Free Church, parish churchyards were passed to county councils - quoad sacra grounds followed in 1933. Post-WWII most private company grounds were taken-over by councils, although a few remain in Edinburgh (e.g. Dean, Piershill, Seafield). Denominational grounds still operate - e.g. I think the churchyard around the Episcopal Church in Duns is now the only non-local authority cemetery or graveyard in Berwickshire.

Presumably this graveyard was a denominational one (like Mount Vernon in Edinburgh on a smaller scale) which the RC Church surrendered/turned into a park?


If such graves were individual, not with family, was it ever CWGC's policy to reinter elsewhere?
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Kenneth Morrison



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

21 November 2016
The CWGC has erected a new war memorial in Dumfries (Holy Cross) Roman Catholic Cemetery to remember three men who lost their lives in the First World War.
The three men are Private Thomas Donnelly and Private Augustine Hullin both from the Royal Scots Fusiliers and Able Seaman Andrew Carnochan of the Royal Navy.
http://www.cwgc.org/news-events/news/2016/11/special-war-memorial-in-dumfries-dedicates-three-first-world-war-soldiers.aspx

Sadly I could not persuade CWGC to include the name of Daniel Mulloy who is I believe also buried here.
http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/warmemscot-ftopic9274.html
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