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Merseman
Joined: 07 Aug 2013
Posts: 339
Location: Duns, Berwickshire
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 Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:40 pm Post subject: Help Needed with 2 individuals from Houndwood, Berwickshire |
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Identified a pair of individuals on the civic memorial in Houndwood who've proven difficult to pin down. Any help would be most gratefully received.
Here's the page on Houndwood:
http://www.warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?t=1035
Houndwood is a small row of cottages - on the A1, about halfway between Berwick and Dunbar. It gives its name to a "quoad sacra" parish, that was divided from the large parish of Coldingham in Victorian times. The parish church (now a crematorium) was at Houndwood - the memorial is outside. There are 2 villages: Grantshouse and Reston.
As you can see the memorial provides reasonably useful information, with the year of death; rank; and regiment, as well as forename or initials and surname. Having collated details on this memorial, it looks like the entries within each year are also arranged in chronological order.
Rolls of Honour existed for Houndwood church and Grantshouse UF church but I haven't yet discovered their wherabouts.
(1914) Pte And Harvey Gordons
= Private Andrew (or Anderson) Harvey, Gordon Highlanders
... I have not been able to find this man at all on CWGC or SWMN listings.
Note - the Coldstream History Society website mistakenly gives details for Alexander Harvey under this man. Alexander Harvey appears on the civic memorial in Ayton, and died in the middle of 1915. However, Ayton is just down the road, so given both these men served in the Gordons they could be related?
(1917) Trooper AH Logan ALH
= Trooper A H Logan, Australian Light Horse
I have found this man; but his entry on CWGC bears little relation to what appears on the memorial. He doesn't seem to have a SNWM entry. Here's his CWGC entry:
| Quote: |
LOGAN, ADAM HASTIE
Rank:Private
Service No:5702
Date of Death:22/07/1918
Age:30
Regiment/Service:Australian Infantry, A.I.F.
9th Bn.
Panel Reference
MemorialVILLERS-BRETONNEUX MEMORIAL
Additional Information:
Son of Adam Smith Logan and Agnes Veitch Logan (nee Turnbull), of Ferney Castle, Reston, Berwickshire, Scotland
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So the memorial says he's a Trooper in the Australian Light Horse, died in the middle of 1917... his CWGC entry says he's a Private in the Australian Infantry Force, died in the middle of 1918.
Interestingly, immediately below him Pte JB Purves RScots = Private John Burns Purves Royal Scots. His CWGC entry says he also died in July 1918 but, like Logan, he appears in the middle of the 1917 listing at Houndwood (all the other entries on the memorial are in accurate chronological order).
So if anyone can help with the mystery Private Harvey, and the real guise of Trooper/Private Logan - and his date of death, or maybe that of Private JB Burns, given the inconsistency - that would be really helpful. |
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Merseman
Joined: 07 Aug 2013
Posts: 339
Location: Duns, Berwickshire
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| Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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After some redoubled searching I've found an entry for the second man... Adam Hastie Logan... in the Scotsman newspaper Births Marriages Deaths columns.
The Scotsman
3rd August 1918
Deaths
LOGAN - Killed in action on 22nd July, ADAM HASTIE LOGAN, Australian Imperial Force, youngest son of the late Adam S Logan, Ferney Castle, Reston
To all intents and purposes this confirms that his CWGC entry is accurate. In doing so, however, it appears to confirm that the war memorial has got him in the wrong year which is surprising. It also gives AIF (here given as Australian Imperial Force) in contrast to the memorial's ALH (Australian Light Horse). Quite confusing. |
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DelBoy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 4858
Location: The County of Angus
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| Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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Harvie could be a "home" death form wounds/illness?
After a bit of digging about Scotlands People indexes there's no War Return with an A. Harvey/Harvie for 1914.
There is just one person who died in 1914 called A. Harvey, in this case Andrew, aged 36 in Shotts.
Worth a look I'd say.
Cheers,
Derek. |
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anne park
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Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 21200
Location: Aberdeen
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:59 am Post subject: Medal card for Andrew Harvey |
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KOSB Pte 530
Gordons 292601
Died 21.2.19
_________________
Researching WWI info from Aberdeenshire, Banffshire, Kincardineshire & Morayshire. |
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Stewartry
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 274
Location: nr Nottingham
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:52 am Post subject: |
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The above man (KOSB Pte 530 - Andrew Harvey) didn't die on that date, rather he was discharged to Class Z Army Reserve ('Disd' on MIC, not Died). Also, he was a Kirkconnel man, so isn't a good fit geographically for Berwickshire.
Stuart
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Merseman
Joined: 07 Aug 2013
Posts: 339
Location: Duns, Berwickshire
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| DelBoy wrote: | Harvie could be a "home" death form wounds/illness?
After a bit of digging about Scotlands People indexes there's no War Return with an A. Harvey/Harvie for 1914.
There is just one person who died in 1914 called A. Harvey, in this case Andrew, aged 36 in Shotts.
Worth a look I'd say.
Cheers,
Derek. |
Thanks, I'll try and do that.
Just to post the image of the inscriptions from the other thread:
As you can see the mystery Private Harvey is the last entry for 1914.
The puzzling Trooper Logan, and Private Purves, are 2/3 way down 1917.
Their dates fit in exactly with perfect chronological ordering, from Wallace in the first months of the war down to Sapper Fair after the armistice: bar the fact they both died in 1918 - not 1917!! It seems it must be an error... someone has listed them as for July 1917 not July 1918. It's just surprises me that such an obvious error could be made.
But, equally, either the memorial or CWGC has Logan's details wrong. |
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Merseman
Joined: 07 Aug 2013
Posts: 339
Location: Duns, Berwickshire
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dhubthaigh
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Location: Blairgowrie, Perthshire
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Merseman
Joined: 07 Aug 2013
Posts: 339
Location: Duns, Berwickshire
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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That's great thanks. Will take a bit of digging to see if there's any mention of the Australian Light Horse, but having skimmed through it I didn't see it mentioned, while references to the 9th Battalion and the AIF do appear. It is interesting that in a couple of places there's an obvious typo in his year of death: could be coincidental or maybe it got replicated somewhere else in 'the system' causing the apparent mistake on the local memorial.
If his mother lived long enough to see the memorial unveiled, you wonder how she must've felt if indeed his rank+unit is wrong alongwith the year. |
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Kenneth Morrison
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 7755
Location: Rockcliffe Dalbeattie
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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Kenny - it's just possible that the people responsible for the memorial just got it wrong 
On my own local parish memorial at Colvend the full date of death is given but in one case the year is wrong:
HYSLOP, WILLIAM Pte. 14th HLI 22 Oct. 1917.
William Hyslop, Private (28874) 14th Battalion, Highland Light Infantry. Age 20.
Born 1896. Son of John and Agnes Hyslop of Dalbeattie. Missing in Action 22 October 1916, remembered on the Loos Memorial, Pas de Calais, France.
(The 14th HLI were at Loos until October 1916 and were then transferred to the Somme. It seems the memorial inscription is incorrect.)
and on the Castle Douglas Memorial there is a George Dempster, Canadians. Even the local newspaper when it reported the unveiling gave the correct name, William Robert Dempster (George's brother)
George in fact served with the RFA and survived the war.
So maybe And. is Alex.????????
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Merseman
Joined: 07 Aug 2013
Posts: 339
Location: Duns, Berwickshire
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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Possibly - and one has to be suspicious given the mistake they made with Private Logan - though the Alexander Harvey on the Ayton memorial died in 1915 so they'd have got the forename + year wrong.
Alexander Harvey is on the Ayton 'UF' Church plaque - now in Ayton Parish Church - with his brother Joseph and both are on Ayton civic memorial, but if it's Alexander appearing on the Houndwood memorial it's just him without his brother. If I track down the Grantshouse and Houndwood rolls I will hopefully solve it.
Ayton's roll in Ayton Parish Church only complicates things further since it has Joseph Harvey (marked with a cross = deceased), no Alexander, and an Andrew Harvey who is not marked with a cross and therefore survived!
Kenny |
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Kenneth Morrison
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 7755
Location: Rockcliffe Dalbeattie
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Just noticed that Alexander Harvey's father was Andrew
Doesn't really help but it is intriguing 
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Ken |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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One other slight query...
8645 Private William Wallace, 1st Battalion, Gordon Highlanders
CWGC says he died 27th August 1914...
... but SNWM says he died 24th November 1914.
Any tips for how to establish which is correct? |
I am checking this with CWGC, but it looks like their date is wrong, may be a scanning error. An official record shows his death in the field was presumed on 24th November. If the CWGC record is wrong it will be corrected.
Logan A.I.F
I wonder if he was involved in the Australian Light Horse before the war and possibly served with them in South Africa.
The various errors you are finding in the memorial inscription, simply confirms that memorials are not always 100% correct and cannot be taken to be so.
_________________
Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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Merseman
Joined: 07 Aug 2013
Posts: 339
Location: Duns, Berwickshire
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Interesting, thanks. |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:42 pm Post subject: 8645 Private William Wallace, 1st Battalion, Gordon Highland |
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| Quote: | | If the CWGC record is wrong it will be corrected. |
The date given to CWGC originally was wrong. They now have confirmation that it should be 24th November and the record will be updated, in due course.
There is no headstone to correct in this case.
_________________
Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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