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apanderson Administrator
Joined: 21 Dec 2006 Posts: 2571 Location: Stirlingshire
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Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:47 pm Post subject: Photo query |
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The man on the left is John Horne, Argylls, afterwards MGC.
His details are as follows:
CWGC: (Horn)
Rank: Lance Sergeant
Regiment: Machine Gun Corps (Infantry), 19th Coy.
No: 16615
Date of Death: 28th July 1916
Buried: Heilly Station Cemetery, Mericourt-L’Abbe
SNWM: (Horn)
Rank: Lance Sergeant
Regiment: Machine Gun Corps (Infantry)
No. 16615
Formerly Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, No. 1154
Place of Birth: Barony, Lanarkshire
Date of Death: 28th July 1916
Theatre of Death: France & Flanders
Cause of Death: Died of wounds
Commemorated: Balfron Civic Memorial & City of Glasgow Roll of Honour (Sergeant John Horne, Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, 15 Cleveland Street, Glasgow)
Soldiers Died in the Great War: John Horn, Lance Sergeant Machine Gun Corps (Infantry), No. 16615, formerly Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, No. 1154. Born Barony, Lanarkshire. Enlisted Glasgow. Died of wounds 28th July 1916
Am I right in thinking both these men are definitely in the uniform of the Argylls and that John on the left has sergeant’s stripes?
The other man is a bit of a mystery. The lady who is researching Balfron's WW1 men thinks it might be a James Adams.
On the reverse of the photo is written: "John Horne (on left), who died 1916 and ‘a local Stirling man’ who won the Croix de Guerre"
A couple of newspaper clippings have been found about a James Adams of Balfron (an ‘old’ soldier’), one saying he was killed in 1914 (which means the mystery man in the photo can’t be him), the other saying he was killed in 1918!
I’ve been unable to find a James Adam/Adams killed whilst serving in the Argylls or in any other regiment with any connection to the district at all.
What do the ‘upside-down’ stripes on the man on the left's sleeve signify?
Anne |
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anne park Our first ever 2000 poster
Joined: 25 Sep 2007 Posts: 21200 Location: Aberdeen
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Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:00 pm Post subject: 4 Stripes |
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Quarter Master Sergeant.
Up to February 1915 various senior Sergeants wore 4 inverted stripes below the elbow. All pictures showing this arrangement must have been taken before that date. _________________ Researching WWI info from Aberdeenshire, Banffshire, Kincardineshire & Morayshire. |
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Kenneth Morrison
Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 7755 Location: Rockcliffe Dalbeattie
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Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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Army Register of Soldiers effects
NoK David Horn S/6444 3rd A&SH
Father David Mother Elizabeth Widow Annie
and a Mrs Euphemia Watson
1901 at 47 Gilbert St. Kelvinhaugh Glasgow
Father David b. "Billearn" Railway Carter _________________ Ken |
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apanderson Administrator
Joined: 21 Dec 2006 Posts: 2571 Location: Stirlingshire
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Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks guys.
There were 4 Horn/Horne brothers serving and I think we've got every scrap of info there is to get on each of them.
However, James Adams ....... !?
Anne |
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anne park Our first ever 2000 poster
Joined: 25 Sep 2007 Posts: 21200 Location: Aberdeen
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Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:46 am Post subject: Ask and you will receive |
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Glad to be of some help.... _________________ Researching WWI info from Aberdeenshire, Banffshire, Kincardineshire & Morayshire. |
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Adam Brown Curator
Joined: 14 Dec 2006 Posts: 7312 Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)
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Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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It looks like an Argylls badge on the Tam O' Shanter on the left.
The three inverted chevrons on the man on the right means he is an old soldier as they are Good Conduct Stripes. Three means at least 12 years service before the photograph was taken and up to 17 - a fourth stripe was issued after 18 years unblemished service.
The background of the photo looks interesting as it suggests the Middle East to me rather than the Western Front as that looks like Palm fronds on the left and some sort of thorn bush on the right. There's obviously strong sun in their eyes too. If that's the case they may have served in the 5th Bn Argylls in the 52nd Lowland Division and this may be in Egypt in early 1916 after moving from Gallipoli.
The 5th Argylls wore their khaki uniforms at Gallipoli before being issues lighter khaki drill uniform. Also early 1916 is the only possible date if it is Egypt as he has to be in France and in the MGC by mid-1916
One last thing. The pistols and whistle chains in their breats pockets suggest some sort of guard or regimental police duty.
Can we put this phoograph up on Facebook/ Twitter? It's a cracker.
Thanks
Adam |
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anne park Our first ever 2000 poster
Joined: 25 Sep 2007 Posts: 21200 Location: Aberdeen
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Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:48 pm Post subject: Sorry I picked the wrong info |
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More Sources of WWI Army Ancestry by Norman Holding gives info. On page 59 it does give the Long Service and Good Conduct stripes.... _________________ Researching WWI info from Aberdeenshire, Banffshire, Kincardineshire & Morayshire. |
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apanderson Administrator
Joined: 21 Dec 2006 Posts: 2571 Location: Stirlingshire
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Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the latest replies.
I'll have to ask permission about FB/Twitter. I had permission to post it here to confirm uniforms and to find out what the inverted stripes meant.
There are descendants who are extremely interested in their Horn/Horne military ancestors, so hopefully, they'll give the 'OK'.
Anne |
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Kenneth Morrison
Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 7755 Location: Rockcliffe Dalbeattie
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Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Adam - is there any significance about the style of the jackets?
The "squared" edges of the man on the left (Horn) as opposed to the rounded edges of the gent on the right?
(who I wouldn't want to meet on a dark night ) _________________ Ken |
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Adam Brown Curator
Joined: 14 Dec 2006 Posts: 7312 Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)
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Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:07 am Post subject: |
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Ken
The man on the left is wearing a standard 1902 pattern tunic issued to British Army troops at the time. He should be wearing a cutway version like the "desperado" on the right - but I suspect that was all that was available as a replacement at that time. It's quite common to see it being worn by Highland troops in WW1-era photographs.
Kind regards
Adam |
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Adam Brown Curator
Joined: 14 Dec 2006 Posts: 7312 Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)
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Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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A little bit of an update from Twitter. Taff Gillingham - a uniform expert - and Inverclyde WW1 which have a lot of information about the 5th Bn Argylls have come up with the folllowing which I'll try and summarise.
The 5th Bn Argylls recieved lighter cotton drill uniform in February 1916 - not long after they arrived in Egypt - so if this photograph was taken in Egypt it was just after they arrived from Mudros in Jan/Feb 1916.
Taff reckons these men are already machine gunners given the pistols at their belt. The chains on their pockets are for watches.
Given that John Horne went from being a machine gunner in the 5th Argylls to 19th Bn MGC it may be that James Adams did something similar. Battlion MG companies converted to MGC companies in early 1916. James Adams may have been in 157 Company MGC in the 52nd Division if he stayed in Egypt.
Inverclyde WW1 also pointed out that time-served TF men - men who had been in the TF since Edwardian times - returned to UK in early 1916. John Horne may have done that to get nearer home and perhaps given James Adams' length of service he returned to Europe too.
So, the search for James Adams should probably start in the Machine Gun Corps on the Western Front.
Adam |
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James Brown
Joined: 07 Jan 2013 Posts: 405 Location: Prestwick, Ayrshire
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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:08 pm Post subject: Inverted Chevrons |
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The Inverted Chevrons on the man on the right is good conduct stripes, normally worn on the left arm below the elbow.
It was given to all ranks under the rank of Sergeant.
Inverted chevrons on the right sleeve (smaller chevrons) would indicate overseas service, commonly worn on the right sleeve below the elbow.
Wound stripes are Vertical stripes about 4" long normally worn on the left, but I've seen them worn on the right.
Sorry to troll, i was looking for some good sources for Battle patches of the 9th, 15th, 51st and 52nd division WW1 era
Regards
James _________________ Researching WWI Memorials in Ayrshire |
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