The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project

apanderson · Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:46 pm Post subject: John Coyle - help required!

Firstly, a wee bit of information on the Coyle Family.

1911 Census, Living at 10 Hamilton Place, Denny
Father Michael Coyle, age 48, Coal Miner/Hewer, born Oakley, Fife (born c1861)
Mother Catherine Coyle, age 47, born Denny (bc 1863)
John Coyle, age 21, Coal Miner/Drawer, born Dunipace (born c1890)
Patrick Coyle, age 19, Coal Miner/Drawer, born Denny (born c1892)
Peter Coyle, age 15, Coal Miner/Hewer, born Dunipace (born c1896)
Joseph Coyle, age 13, Scholar, born Dunipace (born c1898)
Sisters Margaret Coyle, age 17, Pithead Worker, born Dunipace (born c1894)
Catherine Coyle, age 10, Scholar, born Dunipace (born c1901)
Rose M. Coyle, age 6, Scholar, born Dunipace (born c1905)

All 4 sons served as well as their father.

Michael Coyle (Father) is listed in Denny & Dunipace Roll of Honour as follows:
Private, 1/G Royal Scots, No. 28706, residing at Bridgend, Denny.
His Medal Card verifies the details.

Sons Patrick, Peter and Joseph have been relatively easy to track down but eldest son John is driving me round the bend.

Eldest son John Coyle is listed in Denny & Dunipace Roll of Honour as follows:
Lance Corporal, 1/5th Gordon Highlanders, No 260030
His Medal Card verifies these details but has the additional information that he also served in the Argylls
Private, Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, No. 276315 AND Gordon Highlanders, No. 260030

John Coyle’s Pension record states that he attested in January 1913 but was discharged (medically unfit, cardiac valvular disease) on 6th August 1914 and that his next of kin was his father, Michael Coyle, 12 Hamilton Place, Denny, BUT his number is listed at 1784, (7th Argylls)

No doubt (I dont think) that this is the correct John Coyle as both the home address and father's name match perfectly

The Falkirk Herald of 4th December 1915 carries an article about the same Coyle Family and states that Private John Coyle, 7th Bn., Argylls at the time of publication is stationed at Montrose completing his training.

Did he re-enlist? If so, I've been unable to find anything.

The Falkirk Herald of 10th August 1918 carries an article stating that Lance Corporal John Coyle, Gordon Highlanders was drowned on S.S. Warilda between Le Havre & Southampton. The article goes on to explain that he is one of 4 soldier sons of Michael Coyle of Denny and that his wife resides in Sunnyside, Camelon, Falkirk. (Once again, the address and name of his father and the fact that he is one of 4 brothers serving match perfectly.)

The CWGC database lists his details as Lance Corporal, 1/5th Bn. Gordon Highlanders, No. 260030 died 3rd August 1918, commemorated at Hollybrook Memorial, Southampton.

Can’t find any sign of him on SNWM or SDGW.

My quandary is that (if I’m reading the Pension Record properly), Private John Coyle, No. 1784, of the Argylls was discharged in 1914, but as I can’t find any further records for another John Coyle, is John Coyle, No. 276315, Argylls (and 260030, 1/5th Gordons) the same man and if so, what’s happening here?

I’ve gone round and round in circles with this John Coyle and am at the stage of total confusion! (What’s new I hear said!!)

Thoughts/opinions gratefully accepted!

Anne Confused

P.S. On Denny Town and Cemetery Memorials there is one John Coyle listed - Lance Corporal John Coyle, Gordon Highlanders and the same man listed on St. Alexander's Church Memorial in Denny listing his date of death as 3rd August 1918.

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

Looks like he did re-enlist and could be the Gordon listed by CWGC. He is on the correct memorial for having been lost off HMT Warilda on 3rd August 1918. There won't be a record card for 1784.
260030 is in a series of numbers where the men were previously in the Argylls.
Without something more official, for me, they are likely to be the same man, no more. You cannot always rely on the papers.
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk

anne park · Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:49 am Post subject: 5th Bn Gordon Highlanders

If you look you can find Carolyn Morrisey's site I'm sure you could exchange info...
_________________
Researching WWI info from Aberdeenshire, Banffshire, Kincardineshire & Morayshire.

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

I couldn't find details of him for Aug 1918 on Carolyn's site. I assume this is because he would not be named in the records as he was lost from Warilda, at sea.
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk

Kenneth Morrison · Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:32 am Post subject:

Anne - I think it is the same guy.
One thought - the MIC will give the "date of entry" into F&F? Was this sometime after 1915? If so the health criteria might not have been so tight.
Another thought - it looks as though he was lost during the sinking of the HMT Warilda which was transporting wounded troops back to the UK. Is there an earlier newspaper report of him being wounded?

The bit that puzzles me is why he's not on SDGW. There are four Gordons on the CWGC database who died that day and who are listed on the Hollybrook Memorial. All bar Coyle are listed by SDGW and SNWM.
_________________
Ken

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

Ken

apanderson · Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:26 pm Post subject:

Thanks to Ken's sleuthing we now now 'this' John Coyle was indeed at Montrose ......

Marriage on 24th March 1916, at St. Francis Xavier Chapel, Falkirk
John Coyle, age 23, Coal Miner/Private 2/7th Batt. Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, residing at Union Mills, Montrose
Son of Michael & Catherine Coyle (nee Carr)
Agnes Roy Dawson, age 18, Munitions Worker, residing at 19 Roman Buildings, Camelon
Daughter of William & Barbara Dawson (nee Roy).

If this is the same John Coyle (and it's looking more and more likely) I would have thought the diagnosis of his earlier discharge would have been picked up on a subsequent medical?

By co-incidence, on the same page of the marriage register, on the same day, another man, Roderick M. Fraser, a grate-fitter, also a Private in the 2/7th Bn. Argylls, also listing his address as Union Mill, Montrose, also married a Camelon lass!

Anne

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

It appears Union Mills, Montrose were used as barracks during WW1. That would explain the two residing there.
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk

Kenneth Morrison · Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:44 am Post subject:

Anne, you wrote: If this is the same John Coyle (and it's looking more and more likely) I would have thought the diagnosis of his earlier discharge would have been picked up on a subsequent medical?

It could well have been but that the standards were not as high as pre-war. Plus he was allocated to a second line unit (2/7th Argylls) which could be a recognition that he was not 100%. That fact that he finished up at the front is probably a reflection of the man-power shortages in the latter stages of the war - or maybe he proved himself fit enough!

According to the "Long, Long Trail" the 2/6th and 2/7th A&SH were in Falkirk until late 1915 when they moved to "Angus". In March 1916 they moved to Norwich - so it looks as though John married just as they moved south.

(have I covered myself with enough "maybe's and probably's" do you think Rolling Eyes

)
_________________
Ken

apanderson · Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:52 pm Post subject:

I think you probably have Ken!

Anne