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The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project (Registered Scottish Charity No. SC043826). Please visit our homepage at www.scottishmilitaryresearch.co.uk
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spoons
Joined: 09 Jan 2007 Posts: 4991 Location: St John's Town of Dalry
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Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:29 pm Post subject: Maintenance of War Memorials including addition of names |
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I have made some enquiries about this because I thought that it was important that we have some information on the forum for those of us who chose to be more actively involved in the conservation of memorials.
There is an excellent booklet produced by the English Department for Constitutional affairs in 2007. This department is now part of the Department of Justice. I have contacted the department and they suggest we use a link to the booklet rather than copy it on our site because it is in the process of being updated.
As far as I have been able to determine, there is no Scottish equivalent so I recommend this as a short but good read on the subject.
http://www.dca.gov.uk/corbur/buriafr.htm#5 (and go to bottom of page)
\Paul |
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spoons
Joined: 09 Jan 2007 Posts: 4991 Location: St John's Town of Dalry
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Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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I was in correspondance with the War Memorials Trust on another matter and they included the following in a mail to me.............
"On another point of interest, I am not sure if you are aware that this year we launched the Small Grants Scheme in Scotland. This can fund up to 75% of project costs for the conservation of freestanding war memorials to a maximum of £7,500. Details can be found on our website in the Grants section, then selecting Scotland. There is a very high chance of success for applications so perhaps you could mention it to your website users?"
I understand that they will also make grants towards the cost of adding names or correcting errors on war memorials so this should certainly be a useful source of funding for those who are interested.
\Paul |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire
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Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:56 pm Post subject: Small Grants Scheme in Scotland |
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Paul
This is something which I have had cause to look into. The scheme relating to Scotland involves Historic Scotland. It appears to be a fairly complicated process with all sorts of consents, etc, required unless the memorial is owned by you / your organisation. No mention is made of the addition / correction of details being included in the Scheme.
The Guidance Notes / Application Form can be viewed here:
http://www.warmemorials.org/uploads/publications/41.pdf _________________ Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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Roxy Moderator - Morayshire
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 510 Location: Elgin, Moray
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Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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As mentioned on another thread, I contacted Highland Council in order to have the name of Flt Lt Allan Squires RAF - see my signature - added to the Nairn War Memorial. The council's Director of Transport Environment and Community Services received the appropriate consent from Historic Scotland - the Nairn memorial is a listed monument - and, following approval from Allan's widow, his name will be added.
Roxy _________________ Remembering my ggf, Pte Thomas Roberts, 10 SR, killed 25 Sep 15 at Loos.
Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan. |
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dhubthaigh Our first ever 1000-poster
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 5071 Location: Blairgowrie, Perthshire
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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There has been some discussion about 'adding names to memorials'. I think that people putting forward a case for a name from a recent conflict or evidencing a genuine case for an individual being 'missed' is fine. What would amount to fulfilling the criteria I 'm not sure.
But I have to say I am not in favour of finding those with links to a particular place and adding them on. There are a multitude of reasons why names were proposed, or not, as the case may be. It is a bit of re-writing history although the intentions are wll meaning, no doubt. I think that sites like this can keep the names of the fallen alive if they do not appear on memorials etc.
I was sure I had put the following newspaper extract on somewhere but cannot find it; A real cas in point I think;
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dhubthaigh Our first ever 1000-poster
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 5071 Location: Blairgowrie, Perthshire
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Here is the 'final' list for the Blairgowrie & Rattray Great War Memorial. Near the bottom of the first column is the name Forsyth, James, Cpl., K.OS.B.
Now his names does NOT appear on the memorial. He was a barber in Blairgowrie but a native of Lossiemouth. His name does appear on the Lossiemouth Memorial. Did the family/proposer have a change of heart.....!? or is this a compelling case to have his name added to the monument in Blairgowrie. I am sure I could put a case forward for quite a few others that are not on.
Name: FORSYTH, JAMES SCOTT
Initials: J S
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Corporal
Regiment/Service: King's Own Scottish Borderers
Unit Text: 6th Bn.
Age: 19
Date of Death: 18/10/1915
Service No: 17233
Additional information: Son of Simeon and Helen Forsyth, of 43, Clifton Rd., Lossiemouth, Morayshire.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: VI. F. 51.
Cemetery: YPRES RESERVOIR CEMETERY
RESIDENCE - BLAIRGOWRIE
Blairgowrie Advertiser 20th November 1915
Corporal James Forsyth, 6th K.O.S.B. was killed in action 18th October. He was the eldest son of Mr. Forsyth, 43, Clifton Road, Lossiemouth, and was about 21 years of age. For some years he was with his late father as a hairdresser, and before answering the call about a year ago he was in the employment of Mr A. Steven, Allan Street, Blairgowrie. A comrade writing to deceased's mother, says - "James was killed by a shell while in the trenches, and died a hero's death, death being instantaneous. In him the Battalion lost one of its most promising N.C.O's., and one who was greatly respected by all who knew him. He was promoted Corporal after the great charge on 25th September". |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: Blairgowrie & Rattray |
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Mark
Do you have details of the text from the memorial which precedes to roll of names? _________________ Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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dhubthaigh Our first ever 1000-poster
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 5071 Location: Blairgowrie, Perthshire
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Blairgowrie & Rattray |
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kinnethmont wrote: | Mark
Do you have details of the text from the memorial which precedes to roll of names? |
It only states: BLAIRGOWRIE & RATTRAY ROLL OF HONOUR 1914-1919 |
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David McNay Administrator
Joined: 14 Dec 2006 Posts: 11425 Location: Lanarkshire, Scotland
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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I don't really have anything against the adding of names (since we're discussing it in general). If a town wishes to honour someone from that town, and they can justify adding the name, then so be it.
History is not (pardon the pun) written in stone. To choose a point at random - there is no Boer War memorial for Lanarkshire. Should we not erect one now with a list of names just because it wasn't done in the past? That's probably a bad example.
Another example is the village in England that got some coverage a while back. They had no memorial because one of the men from the village had been executed. Rather than prolong any argument about the rights and wrongs of including him, they simply didn't erect one at all. Now, 90 years later, they have a memorial. Do we argue that they should noty have erected a memorial now since they hadn't in the past?
Men were probably left off memorials for various reasons. If a sufficient reason can be found for including them now, then I'm not against it.
I would, however, prefer to see a lot more homework done. How many additional names have come about by someone scanning through Soldiers Died in the Great War? That is something that worries me, especially since I'm aware of quite how inaccurate it can be. It should always be one of many, and not the sole, sources of information called upon. |
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dhubthaigh Our first ever 1000-poster
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 5071 Location: Blairgowrie, Perthshire
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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David McNay wrote: | (since we're discussing it in general) |
Absolutely, and some valid general points made. |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: BLAIRGOWRIE & RATTRAY |
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Mark
The interesting detail regarding St. Martins confirms precisely why names should not be added to any memorial unless it can be confirmed 100% that a genuine mistake was made when the memorial was raised. I notice there is no Robertson named on the memorial at St. Martins.
Let us imagine Daniel had a son and someone discovered an X Robertson on CWGC with no NOK. SDGW and consequently SNWM have him born at St Martins, Perthshire. Hurrah, he is missing from St Martins memorial some would think, let's get his named added. Given what you have discovered it would be totally wrong. Even if a son did exist on CWGC with verifiable NOK at St Martins, it would still be wrong since his family did not want his name included.
I suspect some valid reason will exist for the name of Forsyth being left off at Blairgowrie.
The page you have shown is not the FINAL list. It is a list seeking further additions or corrections after which I assume Forsyth was removed. I note it mentions it being a list of " Men belonging to the Parishes of Blairgowrie and Rattray ". This may have excluded him when they were considered further.
It does seem strange he is not recorded at Lossiemouth where his family resided. Being a fishing community there may have been religous reasons for his name being left off here. This may have extended to the NOK's wishes at Blairgowrie. We cannot know the reasons now, but we should accept that was what was decided.
We should not be re-writing history.
Those who dealt with these matters circa 1920 were best placed to deal with it, they knew the individuals involved. They seems to be pretty well organised at Blairgowrie by comparison with some Committees. They have a Names Committee within the main one, which is not usual in rural towns / parishes. _________________ Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject: Adding Names |
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David
You raise a number of interesting points in your examples.
I don't think anyone would be against raising a new memorial where none existed before,
The English village example touches on the delicate subject of executed men. I known nothing of the "crime " of the individual concerned but we should respect the views of the NOK as a whole. I assume this was done in this case as it is very likely many relatives of the War Dead remain in the local area. If all were content that is a good thing and a great outcome.
I totally agree with you about more homework. The source you mention is notoriously inaccurate. This has just been compounded by the appearance of these details on Ancestry recently. We know our local areas, but others take the bad Ancestry info as Gospel and run with it. The same is true of their Scotland Census transriptions, etc.
There will be some men listed on this Forum who are wrong for lack of research. A lone name on the CWGC Roll of the correct unit and rank with no NOK who enlisted in the correct place on SDGW must be correct. Maybe, maybe not.
If not absolutely certain, I think this should be indicated otherwise visitors are misinformed.
Not even the CWGC Roll can be taken as 100% accurate. It could be there is another man with identical details who is absent from the CWGC list. This is far from impossible. _________________ Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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Roxy Moderator - Morayshire
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 510 Location: Elgin, Moray
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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Just to add my twopence.
Regardless of the wishes of my ancestors, if I discovered that one of my relatives was not commemorated on their local war memorial, I would do what I could to have them remembered. Why? Because I think that they deserve it. Is this simplistic or a bit self-centered? Possibly; just my view.
Roxy _________________ Remembering my ggf, Pte Thomas Roberts, 10 SR, killed 25 Sep 15 at Loos.
Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan. |
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David McNay Administrator
Joined: 14 Dec 2006 Posts: 11425 Location: Lanarkshire, Scotland
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: BLAIRGOWRIE & RATTRAY |
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kinnethmont wrote: | Even if a son did exist on CWGC with verifiable NOK at St Martins, it would still be wrong since his family did not want his name included. |
I don't really agree with that. The family at the time may have thought that, but another generation of that family may feel differently. Why should their wish to commemorate a member of the family be over-ridden by a previous family member.
An example: my father was cremated, so he is not buried with his parents. His name is not on their grave. I could, if I wished, have his name added, as I would like a place to go where I know his name is recorded. Should I not be permitted to do so just because some other family member (my mother) didn't wish it?
I should point out that I'm using that as an example. My mother in fact never even considered it at the time. But I think my point still stands.
Quote: |
We should not be re-writing history.
Those who dealt with these matters circa 1920 were best placed to deal with it, they knew the individuals involved. They seems to be pretty well organised at Blairgowrie by comparison with some Committees. They have a Names Committee within the main one, which is not usual in rural towns / parishes. |
I don't see it as re-writing history. If that was the case, then we shouldn't have added WW2 names. Why add Falklands names? Surely the original intention was to honour the dead of the Great War. I'm sure the original committees had no intention of adding further names from any future conflict - they didn't know. They possibly didn't know about other names omitted at the time. I think it's a bit of a misnomer to say they were best placed to judge. Perhaps, perhaps not. Who is to say that some spiteful member of a committee omitted a name because the man on the memorial owed him money and slept with his wife? We will never know.
Some good points raised here though. I'm enjoying this discussion very much.
Roxy made a very good point. We feel the need to add these names because we believe they deserve to be remembered. At the very root of this discussion, we should remember that. |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire
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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: BLAIRGOWRIE & RATTRAY |
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David
I though you might find this discussion interesting.
David McNay wrote: | I don't really agree with that. The family at the time may have thought that, but another generation of that family may feel differently. |
I suspect most of us would hope that the later generation would respect the wishes of the man's parents.
I cannot really see the comparision between a war memorial and a family grave. Many relatives revere a memorial in the same way they would a gravestone. In many cases the casualty had no grave and the memorial was all the family had. Would someone be pleased if I cut my name into their headstone? I think not.
Quote: | I don't see it as re-writing history. If that was the case, then we shouldn't have added WW2 names. Why add Falklands names? Surely the original intention was to honour the dead of the Great War. I'm sure the original committees had no intention of adding further names from any future conflict - they didn't know. They possibly didn't know about other names omitted at the time. I think it's a bit of a misnomer to say they were best placed to judge. Perhaps, perhaps not. Who is to say that some spiteful member of a committee omitted a name because the man on the memorial owed him money and slept with his wife? We will never know. |
Of course they didn't, they dealt with the Great War, others thirty years later dealt with the next war and so on. None of them involved themselves in the work of the former so why should we, UNLESS it can be proved a genuine error was made.
Of course it is easy with hindsight to decry the Committee concerned. They remain better placed to judge than you or I.
Quote: | Who is to say that some spiteful member of a committee omitted a name because the man on the memorial owed him money and slept with his wife? We will never know. |
A one man Committee! Give them some credit. You are giving reasons for adding more and more names to suit the modern thinking of a minority, not correcting verified errors.
Where would it all end? Memorials everywhere and those there since the outset demeaned by modern thinking. _________________ Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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