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alasdair
Joined: 04 Dec 2007 Posts: 41 Location: Edinburgh
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Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:40 pm Post subject: Names duplicated on other memorials around Scotland |
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As a new member I am very impressed with the standard of the forum and the work put in by the moderators building up such an archive you are to be commended. I am interested to know how many others have found that names are duplicated on many of the memorials around the country.
During my research in Tongue, Melness and Skerray I have found a number of names which appear elsewhere. Is this common? Also have others found names which were missed at the time and has anyone managed to add a name to the memorial.
I have found one name which was missed in the National War Memorial in Edinburgh Castle this has now been added.
Thanks
Alasdair _________________ Ali Sutherland |
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spoons
Joined: 09 Jan 2007 Posts: 4991 Location: St John's Town of Dalry
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Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Alasdair,
I think we have all seen a few names duplicated on different memorials. Of course if you include school and individual memorials, I can think of one man who is on six!! (but only one of those is a civic memorial). However there are others who are on village memorials as well as on the memorial at the nearby large town. Then again there are always those who should have been listed but were not. It all comes down to the fact that memorials were a lot of separate efforts with no overall guiding hand.
There are also quite a few names missing from SNWM, but generally not if they served with Scottish Regiments. I have tried to get one name added to SNWM citing the information on CWGC but I think it was a red rag to a bull as I got a rather unhelpful reply saying they might consider my request if I obtained birth certificates and evidence of residence (all at my own expense of course). Anyone would think that I was asking a favour of them rather than pointing out a fault with their records. I recognised where my comments were not welcome and moved on to where my efforts might have more effect, but well done for getting a name added.
\Paul |
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alasdair
Joined: 04 Dec 2007 Posts: 41 Location: Edinburgh
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Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:28 am Post subject: |
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Hi Paul the names on the memorial I have researched are of soldiers not from the area but they had family members residing there. When the casualty lists for the memorials were submitted the names were included for inclusion on the stone. _________________ Ali Sutherland |
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apanderson Administrator
Joined: 21 Dec 2006 Posts: 2571 Location: Stirlingshire
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Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:34 am Post subject: |
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Hi Alasdair,
Like you, I've discovered that the same men are listed on umpteen memorials - all over the place.
It's only been through this forum that this has come to light though - by other members adding their information to each particular thread/place. I would never have known about the link to Skerray for the Mackay brothers if it hadn't been on your other post on the Bonnybridge thead.
Anne |
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anne park Our first ever 2000 poster
Joined: 25 Sep 2007 Posts: 21200 Location: Aberdeen
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Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:06 am Post subject: Banchory War Memorial |
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This is my local memorial and I know that my great grandparents had to pay to get thier son's name put on the memorial. Anne |
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Adam Brown Curator
Joined: 14 Dec 2006 Posts: 7312 Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)
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Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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There's no one definitive answer for who was or wasn't eligible for inclusion on a memorial and it is common to find some names listed on more than one memorial. It was all done at a very local level. (Some places like Durisdeer couldn't even agree and the committee split and ended up with two civic memorials with a different list of names).
If someone had any sort of local connections they may be on a memorial, presumably a donation to the committee funds would help ensure their inclusion (and would definitely ensure their inclusion on Banchory’s memorial)!
One man (Captain Allan Gilmour) has so far been found on seven war memorials, five of them civic. He was included on both Ardgay and Rosehall memorials because the family estate at Rosehall is in both parishes. He’s on the Strathy memorial because the family also had land on the North coast. He’s on Durness memorial because he worked in Durness, and he’s on Alexandria in Dunbartonshire because his wife was from there. He’s also on a society memorial and a church memorial and may well be listed elsewhere on a school memorial or other church memorials so his total may yet increase.
In researching all of Sutherland’s memorials, and also Edderton and Reay from Ross and Caithness there are always names shared between neighbouring memorials where there are small communities on the boundaries of the parishes. Brora and Rogart share some names from Balnacoil, Bonar and Dornoch share those from Ospisdale. Ardgay and Edderton share names from Kincardine etc. I’m sure this happened all over rural Scotland.
I think it’s a mistake to assume if someone was born in a place they had an automatic right to be on a memorial. The decision was taken at the time using different criteria but I’m sure it had a lot to do with having family in the area for some years who would put forward the name. (And as Alasdair has pointed out in the Bonnybridge thread it doesn’t even have to be immediate family). I’ve come across many men born in Sutherland not listed on the local memorials because the family link with the area was broken long before the war.
The dates also have a bearing on who is included. Strath Halladale's memorial was the first to be erected in Sutherland after the First World War so they only have those who died up until 1918 but Brora’s which wasn't unveiled until December 1922 included those who died well after the war ended. For the Second World War it was sometimes into the 1950’s before the names were added.
A word of warning though. It can be a mistake to assume just because there is a name on a memorial which tallies with your research that the name on the memorial is the one you think it is. I was in contact with someone who for many years has been under the impression their relative is commemorated on a memorial in a town where the relative worked before the war. In fact it is a completely unrelated person with the same (but not common) name who is commemorated. I have not put them straight on the matter since they think the person was well respected in the community and I wouldn’t want to take that away from them.
Luckily for us we now have this forum where we can share our information. The more we investigate the names on the memorials and the more memorials we can get on the forum to check the more we will find these connections.
Adam |
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alasdair
Joined: 04 Dec 2007 Posts: 41 Location: Edinburgh
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Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies, very interesting views _________________ Ali Sutherland |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire
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Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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I have some intimate knowledge of this subject.
As Adam states, there are various and valid reasons why someone is on more than one memorial. It is far from unusual.
It is correct that most war memorials were raised by public subscription under the oversight of a War Memorial Committtee who mostly worked to a locally agreed criteria for inclusion. The thoughts of many communities had turned to an means of remembering the Fallen as early as 1915-16. As Adam states, this varied from commitee to committee, town and village. For someone to have to pay to have their son included is rather unusual, if correct.
Generally they did their work well and disbanded some time after, many of the memorials then being handed over to, and kept up in perpetuity by, the local / parish authorities. A great many, even today, remain legally in private ownership. Any susplus funds were usually dispersed among those affected by the war.
On most memorials there will be some guide to the criteria in the main text on the memorial ie. connected with this parish, from this parish, members of this congregation, who left this district, etc, etc. Of course some may have wished their son's name left off. It happened !!
These people were best placed to know who was / should be rightly commemorated on their local memorial. In rural areas particularly, they well knew those who had left there and went to war, never more to return home.
There is no way a name should ever be added to a memorial unless, it can be proved beyond any doubt that a genuine mistake was made. Such an alteration would, in any case, require the owner's consent. It is not for us to rewrite history. _________________ Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk
Last edited by kinnethmont on Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:18 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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alasdair
Joined: 04 Dec 2007 Posts: 41 Location: Edinburgh
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Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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Great point about rewriting history. It is not a point I considered when I did my research that names may not have been included for a reason.
In fact I found the opposite where a name was included of a person who had died but not at the front. This had caused some disagreement at the time. _________________ Ali Sutherland |
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Roxy Moderator - Morayshire
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 510 Location: Elgin, Moray
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Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:46 am Post subject: re-writing history |
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I disagree with Jim here. Adding a name to a war memorial might not be re-writing history - simply correcting an error.
That my twopence.
Roxy _________________ Remembering my ggf, Pte Thomas Roberts, 10 SR, killed 25 Sep 15 at Loos.
Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan. |
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David McNay Administrator
Joined: 14 Dec 2006 Posts: 11425 Location: Lanarkshire, Scotland
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Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:55 am Post subject: |
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I don't see it as re-writing history. After all, history is not set in stone. People discover new evidence and information all the time. Things change.
We can say that the people at the time knew best, but they didn't have the resources we do now. Let's take an example - say the names were compiled by someone putting a note through every door in the village. Say someone was out when the forms were being collected - would they miss out?
These things need to be considered rather than just saying "They knew best" and leaving it at that. |
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spoons
Joined: 09 Jan 2007 Posts: 4991 Location: St John's Town of Dalry
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Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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I can give a good example locally where names have been omitted in error although there is no move to add the names and I am not going to start a campaign.
Dalry has 2 memorials, a granite celtic cross listing those who died and a much larger wooden plaque which is a roll of honour with those who died having a union flag beside their name. Two individuals from Moniaive were listed on the Roll of Honour for Dalry because they were working (and living) on local farms and went away to war from here. They did not come back to Dalry but they were not necessarily expected to, word never got back that they died so they have no union flag beside their name nor are they listed on the granite cross.
Certainly the lack of a union flag on the roll of honour was an error and I would have expected that they would be listed on the granite cross if it was known they had died.
Fortunately they are listed on the Moniaive memorial so they are commemorated but anyone looking at the Dalry Town Hall Roll of Honour on its own would understandably assume they survived the war.
\Paul |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire
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Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Great point about rewriting history. It is not a point I considered when I did my research that names may not have been included for a reason.
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I have no intention in getting involved in dialogue with three Moderators on this subject, clearly not everyone agrees with their stance.
I could easily quote back an example of where men were left off quite intentionally. There are many such cases.
My advice from the earlier post remains the fact:
" There is no way a name should ever be added to a memorial unless, it can be proved beyond any doubt that a genuine mistake was made. Such an alteration would, in any case, require the owner's consent. " _________________ Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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Roxy Moderator - Morayshire
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 510 Location: Elgin, Moray
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Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, Jim; but you advice remains simply that - your advice. It is not fact (other than alteration would require consent). We are all entitled to our own opinions; I respect yours - even though I disagree with it; regardless of how many individuals you can name who were deliberately omitted from memorials at the request of their next of kin in the 1920s.
Roxy _________________ Remembering my ggf, Pte Thomas Roberts, 10 SR, killed 25 Sep 15 at Loos.
Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan. |
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