The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project

Tonym · Joined: 18 Jan 2007 Posts: 224 Location: East Sussex

A post on SWGP by adp41 Sep/Nov 2008 for Lyness Naval Cemetery - Lyness, Hoy, Orkney, illustrates on pages 7 & 24 what was assumed to be a grave but in fact is a memorial commemorating four Naval Officers, three from HMHS China who died “while boating in Northern Waters on 3rd August 1918” = Nursing Sister, Louisa Charlotte Chamberlain, ARRC. QARNNS - Dental Surgeon, Herbert Myers Marshall, RNVR - Surgeon, Lionel Arthur Martin, RN. All commemorated as died 10th August 1918 by CWGC. and commemorated on Chatham Naval Memorial. One other 3rd Officer Le Cai or Gai Hayward, M.N, vessel unknown, is not recorded on CWGC. My concern is the date of death recorded on the memorial as 3rd August 1918 and by CWGC as 10th August 1918, date advised by naval authorities.

I attempted some research at the time to clarify which date was correct but other research got in the way. The Memorial was "Erected by their shipmates on H.M.H.S. China”, as inscribed on the memorial and I am sure that date, 3rd August, was important. However the date, 10th August, given to CWGC was the date of a Wire from HMHS China. I have tried to visualize the situation and came to following conclusion.

It is possible that this was more than a one day trip, starting possibly on 3rd August for three, four or even more days leave for fishing, camping or just exploring; what type of vessel they were in is unclear although someone suggested a Whaler but that sounds to me, a landlubber, a rather large vessel for four people. However it is suggested that they drifted into Cantick minefield, wherever that was, and struck a mine. How far was this minefield from HMHS China? Would China have heard the explosion? If they did then they would have been aware of the date of the incident or was it the fact that they had not reported back when they were expected and that was the date of China’s Wire?

The point of my post. I am sure that there would have been a dedication service for the memorial that was possibly recorded by the local press with other relevant details. Would anybody have any knowledge of such a record or any other details regarding the incident? Be most grateful for anything you have.

Tony
_________________
Pte. W. BROWN, Middlesex Regiment, K.I.A Battle of The Somme.
Sgt. J. V. MURPHY, The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders, D.O.W Monte Cassino, Italy.

Adam Brown · Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:46 pm Post subject:

No answers I'm afraid but just going back to some old posts.

Since these deaths happened in Orkney wouldn't they have been recorded by the local registrar. If so would that not give a definitive date of death?

Kind regards

Adam

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

Cantick is on Hoy, as is Lyness Naval Cemetery. The deaths are not registed in Scotland but I understand are on the GRO Naval Returns. Not sure about the MN man, who will no doubt be classed as a civilian.

Official evidence confirms that the date on the memorial is wrong and that they died on 10th August 1918.
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk

Tonym · Joined: 18 Jan 2007 Posts: 224 Location: East Sussex

Adam & Jim

I am actually still working on the subject, in between other work. I have some interesting details from Scapa Flow Visitor Cemtre & Museum also the weather conditions for the period from the Met Office.

I have come to the conclusion that both dates are wrong. The 3rd August was almost certainly the day that they departed and the last day their shipmates saw them alive. The 10th August was the date of a wire from China to the Admiralty stating that they had been blown up by a mine,not specifically the date they were blown up but obviously accepted as the date of death.

I have also had a statement from the Grandson of a witness - a 13 year old boy and his brother who were out fishing near Neb (waiting for confirmation of location of Neb) They saw the whaler and waved to the occupants and seconds later the whaler blew up.

The weather conditions for the period were generally cloudy, rather misty and rain and, With the general activity in the area where China and other ships were anchored, there is every possibility that the explosion was not recognised.

I am advised by the Museum that they could have reached Cantick within a day but no idea what time they set off so they could have tied up for some sightseeing or meal break or for the night, whatever. I have a mental picture of the possible event but one thing I am fairly certain of is that the officials on China only became concerned when they failed to return on time and only discovered why when they investigated.

Will be back later.

Tony
_________________
Pte. W. BROWN, Middlesex Regiment, K.I.A Battle of The Somme.
Sgt. J. V. MURPHY, The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders, D.O.W Monte Cassino, Italy.

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

Tony

I expect you will find Neb refers to Neb on the island of Flotta, to the south side of Scapa Flow but still within the anchorage. There was a gun battery there and so assume the entrance area was mined.
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk

Tonym · Joined: 18 Jan 2007 Posts: 224 Location: East Sussex

Jim

I did assume from my map that it was on Flotta and guessed that it was on the S/SW coast but wanted to confirm my guess. I didn't expect a reply over New Year, 'especially in Scotland' but the museum may well not be open at this time of the year.

Tony
_________________
Pte. W. BROWN, Middlesex Regiment, K.I.A Battle of The Somme.
Sgt. J. V. MURPHY, The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders, D.O.W Monte Cassino, Italy.

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

Tony

Details of Cantick light and area at the link below. Not that far from Flotta. China might well have been lying off Lyness.

http://www.cottageguide.co.uk/cantickhead/
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk

Tonym · Joined: 18 Jan 2007 Posts: 224 Location: East Sussex

After a long gap due to other research problems and having been mysteriously Black-listed from the Forum and now, just as mysteriously restored, I return with what I now believe to be a reasonably true picture of the event. I am indebted to Jude Callister, Acting Custodian, Scapa Flow Visitor Centre and Museum, Hoy and her two colleagues David Sinclair and Phyllis Gee at the Flotta Heritage Trust also Steve Jobson at the Met Office, Devon for their assistance.

To familiarise myself with the info received I studied a map of Scapa Flow and surrounding area and the WWI Scapa Flow defences plan published in ‘SCAPA FLOW The Defences of Britain’s great fleet anchorage 1914-1945’. On the information provided by Jude Callister it would appear that China was probably anchored in the Main Fleet Anchorage in Southern Scapa Flow just North of Flotta. The route that would have taken by the group was due South down the East coast of Flotta arriving at Neb on the South coast of Flotta. The Switha Minefield is just South of Neb and there was a submerged boom indication the minefield. This had to be their route and confirmed when I received the following comment from David Sinclair –

"I have no idea of the date of the event mentioned but I have always known of it as my Grandfather, Donald Sinclair, and his older brother, Jock, were fishing or creeling near Neb when the boat passed with these medical personnel on board and the occupants of both boats waved to one another. Seconds (rather than minutes, I believe) later there was a tremendous explosion and nothing but wreckage remained of the boat that had just passed. Grandad and Jock felt helpless as they couldn't venture closer to see if anyone had survived. Grandad (who was only 13 years old at the time) often spoke of the shock they felt that these folk were waving cheerily one minute and gone the next”.

Jude had also advised me that it was possible to row from the anchorage to Neb, there and back, in a day so it is conceivable that they could have died on the first day of their trip, the day their colleagues saw then off 3rd August. However, we do not know the purpose of their trip. They could have stopped on the North coast of Flotta and stayed a day or two to study the wildlife or the countryside or even stopped for awhile due to the weather. One thing is certain the two lads fishing would have been well aware of the minefield and been a safe distance away and the fact that the whaler hit a mine within seconds/minutes of the lads waving to them it could have been a rouge mine that had become detached from its anchorage.

Regarding whether those on China heard the explosion, the minefield was some 5 miles away, as the crow flies, from the fleet anchorage and the weather that week was generally overcast and misty with drizzle and Easterly breezes, also the Island of Flotta separated them from the anchorage, apart from that I am sure there was plenty of activity and noise in the anchorage all of which could have dulled the noise of an explosion thereby no warning of an incident. My contacts on Flotta also checked the Orcadian press for that period and found no reports.

I have been unable to locate any ships log for China so we do not know how long leave they had but as China’s Wire to the Admiralty was dated 10th August it is my assumption (naughty) that they were overdue back aboard by that date and a search was launched and only then did they become aware of the incident and therefore the official date accepted for their death.

Not knowing when the memorial in Lyness Cemetery was erected or dedicated it was not possible to identify any references but the 3rd August, being the last date that their colleagues saw them alive, was probably considered as appropriate.

Would be interested in any comments.

Tony
_________________
Pte. W. BROWN, Middlesex Regiment, K.I.A Battle of The Somme.
Sgt. J. V. MURPHY, The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders, D.O.W Monte Cassino, Italy.