The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project

David McNay · Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:50 am Post subject:

I have been in contact with Ian Robertson, who, along with several other individuals has made contact with the council and will be co-ordinating efforts to try and restore/relocate this memorial. They will be representing the Great War Forum, The Western Front Association and this project.

I am being kept up to date on developments and will try and update this thread as I can. Some of the information, however, must for the moment be kept confidential.

Thanks,

David

Murray · Joined: 21 Jan 2008 Posts: 64

From todays Dundee Courier:

Talks on defaced war memorial

By Brian Allison, local government reporter

ANOTHER WAY of commemorating soldiers who died in the first world war is being investigated by Dundee City Council, following the vandalism of a memorial in Caird Park.

The present memorial, to soldiers of The Black Watch, has been damaged and covered in graffiti by vandals.

Photographs of the memorial posted on a Scottish war memorials website provoked outrage from ex-soldiers all over the country.

Former soldiers and members of The Black Watch Association have condemned the defacement of the memorial, a sandstone fountain put up in 1922 that bears the names of servicemen from the Mains Parish.

Councillor Bob Duncan, convener of the leisure, arts and communities committee, which has responsibility for parks, echoed the condemnation and said he deplores the erosion of the community spirit which led people to commission the memorial.

“The memorial was erected by the people of Mains Parish to commemorate their war dead but, unfortunately, the community spirit that was so prevalent in the immediate aftermath of the horrors of the first world war seems to no longer exist there,” he said.

“I understand and completely support the condemnation of these vandals by former soldiers and the various bodies dedicated to ensuring that the sacrifices of the 25 men named on the fountain are never forgotten by this or any future generation.”

However, Mr Duncan said the fact the memorial is made of sandstone, a porous and relatively fragile substance, meant cleaning up and preserving it after almost 90 years of exposure to the elements and the recent vandalism would be difficult.

“Sandstone, while an attractive rock, soaks up the inks and paints that have been daubed on it,” he said.

Consultation is ongoing to work out the best way to maintain the public commemoration of the war dead while trying to prevent further desecration.

He said one idea being looked at is creating a new plaque with the names on it and putting it elsewhere in the park, where it can be seen but is out of easy reach of vandals.

“Mains Castle might be a feasible location but we are not rushing into this because we want to find something which will meet with the general agreement of those concerned,” he said.

Once the form of the commemoration has been decided, Mr Duncan said, it would be appropriate to have a ceremony of rededication.

The Courier

Adam Brown · Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 9:11 am Post subject:

All those words that were used to condemn the vandals when this story broke should now be used to describe Councillor Bob Duncan. Evil or Very Mad

"the community spirit that was so prevalent in the immediate aftermath of the horrors of the first world war seems to no longer exist there"

NO the failure of the Council to take responsibility for a memorial in their care is the only problem here and the Council are cravenly shifting the blame onto the people of Mains. To parapharse Councillor Duncan - the commitment to Mains War Memorial made by Dundee Corporation in the immediate aftermath of the horrors of the First World War seems to no longer exist in Dundee City Council.

I hope the people of Dundee do not let the Council wriggle out of this one. It's only in this state because Dundee City Council let it rot and not because a couple of bored teenagers in Mains have no respect for their Memorial.

Aaaarrrgghh my blood is boiling about this one and I will stop typing now before I break the keyboard!

Adam

David McNay · Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 9:47 am Post subject:

I can tell Bob Duncan right now that a nondescript plaque will not meet with approval.

The council are obviously trying to take the "low cost" way out - they cannot be allowed to do so.

They are responsible for this memorial - fix it!

spoons · Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 3:31 pm Post subject:

I have just spoken to the Conservation Officer at the War Memorials Trust and they are in dialogue with Stewart Murdoch, Director of Leisure and Communities. Nothing specific to report yet but the Trust are hopeful that they will be able to offer advice and financial assistance.

\Paul

Keptie · Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 3:45 pm Post subject: Caird Park Dundee war memorial

Courier & Advertiser Tuesday 5 May 2009 : Craigie section in all editions of the paper:

Found on Memorial:

The Caird Park Memorial to Black Watch soldiers killed in the first World war has featured recently for the wrong reasons but a more uplifting note comes from KEN KENNEDY of BROUGHTY FERRY, who says :

" I have been tracing my grandfather's activities during the first world war for some years and with the help of Tom Smyth of Balhousie Castle have visited his grave at Y - Ravine Cemetery in Newfoundland Park near Beaumont Hamel , France .

"He was killed during the battle of Ancre on November 13th , 1916 . I was aware of a memorial in CAIRD PARK but it was only when I saw the photos of the names did I realise that one was of GEORGE MCLAREN .

" I checked with Tom and found there were four George Mclarens killed, but only my grandfather was from the parish of Mains . Although there are no ranks or numbers on the memorial , it seems it is, indeed , my grandfather who is commemorated there !"

.

Adam Brown · Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 4:57 pm Post subject:

Thanks Keptie

It's good to see some positive news about Mains War Memorial for a change

Cheers

Adam

David McNay · Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 5:35 pm Post subject:

I wonder what Ken Kennedy thinks of the condition of the memorial commemorating his grandfather?

I wonder if it might be of use to try and trace relatives of all the men commemorated?

Ian Robertson · Joined: 20 Apr 2009 Posts: 24 Location: Broughty Ferry

All,

We met with the council last night. Without giving everyone a blow by blow account the upshot is the council has abandoned their plans for a plaque and the prefered option is to refurbish and relocate the existing memorial. There is an exercise to be carried out in researching the work and cost involved in this but we have now opened a dialogue with the council officers and an agreement has been reached that our group will be consulted before any work takes place. Mr Duncan confirmed to me in an e-mail today that the option of a plaque is off the agenda. Further meetings are to be scheduled. Expect another press release from Mr Duncan stating that they have consulted concerned groups and that feasibility studies will be carried out before any work comences

regards
Ian

Adam Brown · Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 7:37 pm Post subject:

Ian

Very good news. Well done to all involved in Dundee for getting the Council to see sense at last and that they are finally living up to the promise made by the Corporation after the War.

Cheers

Adam

dhubthaigh · Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 7:40 pm Post subject:

Ian,

Thanks for letting us know of the latest developments. This has been a superb effort by yourself and others in the way you have taken this on and presented a determined case to have the matter rectified.

rgds.,
Mark

Keptie · Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 11:01 am Post subject: mains memorial

good to hear the update Ian from "the Ferry" about the change of the Dundee Council and with the pressure put on them by the various parties around including Mr Bob Paterson (chair of the WFA -Tayside /Fife Branch ) the promises of the council will have to be done

Ian Robertson · Joined: 20 Apr 2009 Posts: 24 Location: Broughty Ferry

All

Thanks for the comments. A word of warning. I'm sure that the plan to erect a plaque on the walls of the castle is off the agenda, in fact I have it in writing, but there is the small formality of the feasibility report and cost to be considered. We are prepared for a bit of a struggle yet. Still, we have opened a dialogue and we are part of the consultation process so it's a start. "This is not the end; this is not even the beginning of the end; but it may be the end of the beginning" as someone famous once said!
Keptie is right to point out the contribution of Bob. He and GAC have played a blinder so far, and we were suitably reinforced at the meeting by another of the Tay Valley lot, Black Jock, who is an ex CSM 1st Battalion Black Watch and representative of the Angus and District Black Watch Assoc.
We will try to keep up updated as significant developments occur.

regards

Ian

Keptie · Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 6:34 pm Post subject: mains memorial

Thanks Ian for the update and yes things are never there until the memorial has been completed to the Public's requirements and the pressure kept on these officials in Office and in this case : Dundee Council .

patrick w anderson

David McNay · Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 10:08 pm Post subject:

Here, after some delay, are the photos I took when Adam and I visited the memorial.

I took some general views as well as closeups of some of the damage.

This appears to be a previous repair which hasn't blended well with the original stonework:

Although much of the grafitti has been removed, this is one part which hasn't, and the date of 2006 shows how little work has been done on this memorial.