The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project

James Webster · Joined: 16 Apr 2009 Posts: 1

My grand father served with the 6th Bn KOSB was killed on the Somme.
His records were destroyed in the 2nd WW. What we know from CWGC he was an A/Sgt name Joseph Webster and was from Kirkcudbright although he married my grand mother in Belfast his name doe's not show on the memorial in Kirkcudbright? WHY not

Keptie

James ,

The Scottish National War Memorial at the Edinburgh castle lists your Grandfather in the ROLL OF HONOUR Kings Own Scottish Borderers as

A/Sgt 7389 Joseph Webster, 6th Bn KOSB's born Tongland, Kirkcudbright and death date of 7 July 1916 France & Flanders (Theatre of War)

There is no entrance charge to the Scottish National War Memorial at the Edinburgh castle and a free ticket is issued at the ticket office at the castle for entry only to the SNWM

Your Grandfather is also listed in the War Office publications for each Regiment /Corps who were casualties in the Great War and he is listed

Webster Joseph A/Sgt 7389 6th Bn KOSB ,

Born Tongland Kirkcudbright

Enlisted and Residence at Castle Douglas , Kirkcudbright

Killed in action 7 July 1916 France and Flanders

Maybe you should check the war memorial at Castle Douglas and also the other war memorials such as churches to see if he is listed on these being the location of his enlistment and Residence ...

Keptie · Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:19 pm Post subject: Sgt 7389 Joseph Webster 6 KOSB

I see that the CWGC list Sgt 7389 Joseph Webster , 6th KOSB's but there is no next of kin shown . Sgt Webster has no known grave and is listed on the Missing at Thiepval Memorial etc.

Seems that the Castle Douglas memorial does not list your Grandfather but what about schools & churches etc memorials ? What roll of honours are also related to that town and do they list your relative . Do you know where the family were living in post c 1918 or so to complete the forms for an entry on a war Memorial ??

Keptie · Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:28 pm Post subject: Sgt Joseph Webster , 6 KOSB

The medal roll for your Grandfather shows him as a Private in the KOSB with the same service number and then as Acting Sgt with the KOSBs

Maybe after some research to see if your grandfather is listed on a war memorial you might contact the Royal British Legion Scotland Castle Douglas branch to see if they will put forward your request to have your grandfather's name to go onto the War Memorial . An application would have to go to the Council to have the additional name added .

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

James

Is this Joseph Hannay Webster?

The reasons for a man not appearing on a particular memorial are many and varied. It does not follow that he was has to have been commemorated on a war memorial because he was born, resided or enlisted, etc, etc at a particular place. It depends entirely on the criteria used by the War Memorial Committee involved in raising the memorial and the information supplied to them by relatives, etc.

The War Office record Keptie mentions, Soldier Died in the Great War, is notoriously inaccurate. Some details in the SNWM record is extracted from this entry and can therefor repeat incorrect details.
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk

spoons · Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:01 am Post subject:

Certainly a puzzle this one. I know the area well and believe I have identified all of the memorials in the area - the one possible memorial that is not on the project yet is the memorial at Kirkcudbright Academy. He is not listed on any civic or church memorial from Castle Douglas or Kirkcudbright or any parish adjacent to either. Surprisingly I cannot identify him from the 1901 census either although there are certainly Websters living in and around Castle Douglas.
Do you have any other information about him such as date of birth (even approximate), school attended, church attended or occupation?

A couple of possibilities about why he may not be listed, those responsible for Kirkcudbright and Ringford/Tongland memorial may have assumed he would be included on the Castle Douglas memorial as that is where he now lived and Castle Douglas committee may have assumed he would be recorded where he was born. It may bee that no family members put his name forward. Also possible that he did not attend a church and his name was not therefore included on any church memorial. I have not yet traced any Catholic church memorials for the period if he worshipped there?

\Paul

Roxy · Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:05 pm Post subject:

James,

You could always approach the local council and ask if they have the information that was used to determine the names that were added to the memorial. It may be that it was an oversight; it may be that the family did not want him remembered on the memorial;it may be a number of other things (that I can't think of). I don't think that it would do any harm.

Good luck!

Roxy
_________________
Remembering my ggf, Pte Thomas Roberts, 10 SR, killed 25 Sep 15 at Loos.
Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan.

Keptie · Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:25 pm Post subject: Sgt J Webster 6th KOSB's

I would contact the Castle Douglas library and or the Dumfries library to see if there is an entry in the local newspapers for the area showing the men going to the Colours each week and also more importantly the newspaper report recoding your Grandfather, Sgt Joseph Webster , 6th Bn KOSB's being killed in action to see what info is there about residence and his next of kin .

Next of kins usually went to the War Memorial board /committee via the newspaper reports with the required forms so that casualties could be added to certain war memorials .

After this research I would contact the Royal British Legion Scotland Castle Douglas branch secretary who will liaise with the council officials regarding an additional name to the war memorial for the town . There is a branch in Castle Douglas !

spoons · Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:52 pm Post subject:

If you do go the route of having his name added to a memorial, the War Memorials Trust will consider making grants for this purpose. I am the Regional Volunteer for the Trust for the area and so can pass on the details.

Regards

Paul

Kenneth Morrison · Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:16 pm Post subject: joseph webster

The only Joseph Webster to come up on the GRoS Birth Registers for Kirkcudbrightshire 1855 - 1900 is Joseph Hannay Webster, born 1882 in Rerrick Parish (Dundrennan, Auchencairn, etc) This would give an age of 34ish at death. Next time I'm in Castle Douglas library I'll have a look for him in the Stewartry Roll of Honour.
_________________
Ken

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

I asked James to confirm James Hannay Webster was his grandfather, but he has not responded, as yet. I also found that he was born at Rerrick.

If it is the same man this further confirms the details in SDGW and SNWM are in error and brings " Enlisted and Residence at Castle Douglas " into question as well.

I am aware that 7389 Webster Joseph A/Sgt, 6th Bn KOSB was 33 when he was killed which suggests he may be James Hannay Webster. This man went to France in 1914, obviously not with 6th KOSB. They were a Service battalion who landed in France in 1915.

It appears that Webster was a Regular soldier ( or Reserve) in the 2nd KOSB who went to France when war broke. Sometime later he was transferred to 6th KOSB, possibly as an experienced soldier training them or following wounding and recovery.
He clearly did not enlist into the 6th KOSB at Castle Douglas after August 1914.

Let us not suggest more of putting names on memorials until the true facts are confirmed, if ever they can be.
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk

spoons · Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:03 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the research Jim, undoubtedly there is a lot to be clarified (if it ever can be). One thing you may consider is that all of this is a very rural area and Rerrick Parish (Dundrennan) has no large village or town and is about an equal distance from the towns of Kirkcudbright and Castle Douglas so anyone from Rerrick could easily consider himself to be from one place or the other without actually having to move.
My own small village of St John's Town of Dalry has a postal address of Dalry, Castle Douglas despite being 16 miles away and Rerrick is closer to Castle Douglas than I am.

I am about to post some notes on the Addition of names to war memorials from the War Memorials Trust perspective and anyone wishing to read further into this can do so at http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?t=4353

\Paul

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

Paul

I appreciate what you write, I live in a similar rural area. There have been several references to have him added on a memorial from the info given. The point I was trying to get across is was that the sources are suspect, and cannot be accepted as fact. If asked where he was born that would be Rerrick. Likewise he enlisted and resided in a particular place, not several.

Although he may have originally had local links, I suspect he was a Regular who had been living out of the area for years. If still in the Army he would have been in Dublin in 1914. Were his family living in Belfast?
Maybe James will have the answer.

The War Memorials Act (Local Authorities' Powers) Act, 1923 ( Amendment Scotland 1948 ) gives no authority to add names to a memorial but allows " correction of any error or omission in the inscription " . This came about so as to make the existing Great War memorials suitable for recording the Fallen of WW2. I understand it is legally debateable whether " inscription " means anything other than the text ie. does not include names. The original 1923 Act made no arrangement for adding names, why would that suddenly start in 1948?

Scots Law will apply.
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk

spoons · Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:02 pm Post subject:

Yes I have seen that argument before but the act is there to allow local authorities to change the inscription of a memorial where they are NOT the owner. If they ARE the owner then there is no problem, they can just add or change inscriptions as they see fit - they don't need any special powers.
Advice from the War Memorials Trust in this context is that 'inscription' covers all text which would include names. Therefore I disagree with you, local authorities DO have the power to add names if they so wish, freely where they own the memorial or by exercising their power under the act where they do not.
The War Memorials Trust operates in England, Scotland and Wales and is familiar with the differences between Scots and English law.

\Paul

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

Paul

As I said, it is legally debateable