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Penpont War Memorial Dumfriesshire
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teddy



Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Posts: 214
Location: Penpont, Dumfriesshire

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:25 pm    Post subject: Penpont War Memorial Dumfriesshire Reply with quote

Help need with WW1 names on the above please -
William Carmichael: Thomas Finlater: John Miles: and John McNish.

Also information and service number regarding James McAllister please, have noted in Dumfries and Galloway Standard dated 18/9/1918 as follows....."On the 14th August at Columbus Hospital, Chicago, James McAllister son of Mrs McAllister of Tibbers, Thornhill" in Death on Service page. Recorded only on Penpont WM.
We have John McAllister No153536 Canadian Inf and William McAllister No 132181 from MGC recorded on both Penpont and Keir War Memorials, both the CWGC state sons of Mrs Jane McAllister of Tibbers Thornhill.

Grateful for help please.

Teddy
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4966
Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Teddy

Welcome to the project. Are you connected with the Glencairn Memorial Book project? I note that none of your men are listed in that book, but it is just along the road.

Not sure if I have anything decisive but I will throw up what I can in case it provides the missing link.

In the 1901 census, James age 11, John age 12, and William age 2 were living with their mother Jane age 34 and Sarah age 8 at Bankhead Cottage. Jane is described as Head of household so no father on the scene.

Trying to think laterally, there is no McAllister (any variation of spelling) in a CWGC listed grave in any cemetery in Chicago. He does not seem to be listed on SNWM or CWGC so my best guesses are either he was not serving in the forces at the time of his death or the report of his death was false - rare but not unknown.

To lose all 3 sons is awful.

\Paul
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teddy



Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Posts: 214
Location: Penpont, Dumfriesshire

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:01 pm    Post subject: Penpont War Memorial Dumfriesshire Reply with quote

Hello Paul,
Thanks for information regarding James McAllister, like you I couldnt find on SNWM or CWGC. The Columbus Hosp was being used for the Spanish flu in 1918 I understand.

I am not connected with Glencairn Memoral Book, have copy and several men in which are on Penpont WM. (contact with Sandy Hall, they were able to sent £1500.00 to E. Hosp as they had grant for book, sales were profit, I went to show in Church with book and information from it and someone picked up cheque for the E. Hosp)

I stay outside Penpont - where your favourite WM is - and am member of local history group just trying to trace all local WM's Managed to complete Keir and Tynron and Thornhill have 12 to trace. May ask for help with Thornhill as well.

Thanks for help.

Teddy
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4966
Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I met Sandy when he came to a talk I gave on War Memorials in the Glenkens. I am giving another talk on 'Memorials in the Glenkens' - mostly (but not exclusively) war memorials. Dalry Town Hall 22nd May.

There was a Findlater family (note, spelt with a d) living in Pringleton S Side, Penpont on the 1901 census, but no Thomas, nor was he listed on the 1891 census. But I would wager that Findlater is the correct spelling of the name. Still not found him on CWGC or SNWM though and no inscriptions in Penpont churchyard that I noted.

If Carmichael was this man
Name: CARMICHAEL, WILLIAM
Initials: W
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Lance Corporal
Regiment/Service: Highland Light Infantry
Unit Text: 1st Bn.
Date of Death: 08/03/1916
Service No: B/8960
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 35 and 64.
Memorial: BASRA MEMORIAL
and there is nothing to say he was other than 'best fit of those available' then there is something odd in his story. His medal index card shows his medals were returned under Kings Regulations para 992 in 1923! (no idea what that para is by the way)

\Paul
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David McNay
Curator


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7581
Location: Lanarkshire, Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Paragraph 992 refers to medals being returned for adjustment of some kind. There's a thread about this regulation on the Great War Forum but I can't access it at work.
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4966
Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good news. LCPL James McAllister's service record has survived and is on Ancestry. He served in 5th KOSB (so forum member 'Stewartry' may be of some assistance here). He suffered a bullet wound on his left hand in 1915 in the Dardanelles campaign and went on to develop enteric fever (recovered). Married at Barjarg Village, Auldgirth in 1916.

I presume he died subsequent to his discharge of a non war-related cause, that is the usual reason to find someone on a war memorial but not listed on CWGC.

I have never worked out which memorial covers Auldgirth, any idea? Discharged 1917 permanently unfit because of gunshot wound. Daughter born in 1917. PM me with your email address if you would like a copy of his service record.

\Paul
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teddy



Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Posts: 214
Location: Penpont, Dumfriesshire

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:56 pm    Post subject: Penpont War Memorial Dumfriesshire Reply with quote

Great News regarding James McAllister.



Regarding Auldgirth, in the parishes of either Keir or Closeburn, so will be on either WM: then village of Kirton nearest place WM which will be Kirkmahoe: other could be Dunscorce WM or of course Thornhill WM.
Auldgirth area covers all these places I think.

Penpont WM different from many in area as only show names and no service people in, which makes it diffcult to sort out.

Found two mistakes in spelling on Penpont WM..1. Sincliar and should be Sinclair which is Fred W. Sinclair No 26 from KOSB died on11/11/1915 who was the older brother of Alfred M Sinclair No129389 from Canadian Inf died on 9/4/1917...note only Fred is recorded on Penpont WM.
2. Is Finlater, which is Findlater recorded on report on unveiling of Wm in Dumfries and Galloway Paper dated 30/3/1921. So think yes I am looking for Thomas Findlater.

Thank for help....Teddy


Last edited by teddy on Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:11 pm; edited 2 times in total
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teddy



Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Posts: 214
Location: Penpont, Dumfriesshire

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:44 pm    Post subject: Penpont War Memorial Dumfriesshire Reply with quote

Paul,


Many thanks look forward to your notes re James McAllister.

Regards,

Teddy
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teddy



Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Posts: 214
Location: Penpont, Dumfriesshire

PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:27 pm    Post subject: Penpont War Memorial Dumfriesshire Reply with quote

Regarding John McNish......Found record of family grave for the McNish Family In Penpont Churchyard.
Son of Willliam McNish and Isabella Dalziel, namely John McNish who died 22nd July 1919 aged 45 years old and interred in Willesden Cemetery London. Family Grave for many other of the family.

Does anyone known anything about above cememtery in London? and do you think this man would have been recorded on the Penpont WM?
I cannot find much more,
Can anyone help please? Thanks.

Teddy
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4966
Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willesden is a very large civilan cemetery (actually there are 5 but I am assuming it is the 'new' cemetery) which has over 250 war graves. It is entirely possible that this is the man but only the local war memorial committee would know for sure, if you can show that the man you found had some war service then that might account for it. He has no entry on CWGC or SNWM which tends to show he did not die of war related issues but if (for example) he was run over by a bus after giving 4 years service, the local committee may have decided to add him.

It is also possible that there is some confusion between John McNish and John Allen who is also listed on the Penpont memorial. Private 23765 John McNish Allen, 3rd Battalion, King’s Own Scottish Borders transfered to TR2/4253, 53rd Battalion, Training Reserve who died aged 20 on 25th January 1919. Son of Thomas Allan of Brierbush, Penpont.

\Paul
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teddy



Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Posts: 214
Location: Penpont, Dumfriesshire

PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:39 pm    Post subject: Penpont War Memorial Dumfriesshire Reply with quote

Paul, Thanks for this, regarding John McNish.
One of the difficulties I have is that no records of whom War committee put onto WM, Have all information on meetings from 1919 to Dec 1920, but everything missing from 1921 to about 1928, all church records and some local clubs during this period also missing.....so no help from that.

I did think John McNish Allan and John McNish were perhaps one of the same so just one men only and that John McNish name is a mistake;

Still trying to find out information from locals regarding John McNish buried in London.


Teddy
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4966
Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John McNish who is buried in Willesden enlisted into the Labour Corps (army number 302287) on 15 October 1915 age 42, he was a Draper/Packer. Discharged on 17 March 1919 no longer fit for War Service. He had 'malignant disease of the pharynx', i.e. throat cancer. Info from his pension record which is available on Ancestry. He served in France and was awarded the usual 3 war medals (from his medal index card) so I am pretty sure that this is your man. Died of an illness unrelated to his previous service but the parish decided to honour him anyway.

\Paul
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teddy



Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Posts: 214
Location: Penpont, Dumfriesshire

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:59 am    Post subject: Penpont War Memorial Dumfriesshire Reply with quote

Paul,
Many thanks for information regarding John McNish.

So Penpont WM had John McNish Allan and JohnMcNish and found information for both.

Great.

The aim is to produce booklet on Penpont WM and listing full information on all, I have been working over last few years on this, but only had the computer for short period.

Thanks Teddy
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4966
Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a Thomas Macdonald Findlater, originally from Alloa, who was a gardener at Drumlanrig (I think that comes under Penpont - or very nearly). He enlisted into A&SH (S/14164) on 28 Oct 1915, discharge date looks like 28 Jan 1919 but it is not clear. He was dischaged A1 fit. If you can show that he died shortly after discharge then he might be your man. Alternatively he may have gone back to Alloa, the employee at Drumlanrig knew he had not returned from the war, assumed he had died and he was entered on the memorial incorrectly!

That doesn't help a lot I'm afraid.

\Paul
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teddy



Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Posts: 214
Location: Penpont, Dumfriesshire

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:43 pm    Post subject: Penpont War Memorial Dumfriesshire Reply with quote

Regarding Thomas Findlater, Drumlanrig is in Parish of Durisdeer, which is next to Penpont. Yes I think this could be my man.
Will try to see if can discover if died.

Thanks for all the information.

Regards....Teddy
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