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How should we name our memorials?
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Roxy
Moderator - Morayshire


Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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Location: Elgin, Moray

PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 9:43 pm    Post subject: How should we name our memorials? Reply with quote

I post this as there has been a bit of a discussion regarding the name of the memorial at Delnashaugh. The Moray Council - who own it - call it 'Delnashaugh'; the UKNIWM call it 'Bridge of Avon'; it is in the Parish of 'Inveravon'. What should we call it? Does it really matter?

I had changed the name to that used by the UKNIWM - now I'm not so sure.

Any thoughts?

Roxy
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 10:02 pm    Post subject: How should we name our memorials? Reply with quote

Quote:
Does it really matter?


If we are trying to record things accurately to inform visitors to this site, I think it does matter.



Quote:
It is the case that the memorial title reflects who the memorial is dedicated to rather than where it is, and since you have informed us that it 5850 is to the wider parish of Aberdour this is now the memorial title.


UKNIWM record theirs by Parish, as detailed to me above. They will correct the Bridge of Avon detail if made aware of the Parish name and supplied with conclusive evidence to confirm this.

I understand we are using the same format, with a place also, where required - Parish of Cruden - Cruden Bay, Parish of Benholm (Johnshaven), Botriphnie Parish, Drummuir, Speymouth Parish, Mosstodloch and Mortlach Memorial, Dufftown being local examples.

There are examples of the actual UKNIWM details being " edited " , as found at Glenlivet.
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:07 am    Post subject: Re: How should we name our memorials? Reply with quote

kinnethmont wrote:
I understand we are using the same format, with a place also, where required - Parish of Cruden - Cruden Bay, Parish of Benholm (Johnshaven), Botriphnie Parish, Drummuir, Speymouth Parish, Mosstodloch and Mortlach Memorial, Dufftown being local examples


Jim

Yes, it was discussed in another thread but where the parish name and the community name are different we'd like both in the title. Only having one or the other can lead to duplicates being posted.

Roxy

Jim has listed four examples above and any of them are valid on the forum.

The one in question is hopefully the exception rather than the rule and all four names should be listed.

If I'm reading this correctly it is not the Parish of Inveravon memorial because the parish has another memorial at Glenlivet. In that case my own feeling on this is that it should start with Delnashaugh since that is the community it is in, and that is how Moray council recognise it. It should then mention Ballindalloch, Bridge of Avon and the Parish of Inveravon.

Here's my suggestion Delnashaugh (Ballindalloch, Bridge of Avon), Parish of Inveravon

Adam
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1663
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 10:00 am    Post subject: Inveravon War Memorial Reply with quote

Quote:
I take it by Ballindalloch you mean the memorial listed here by it's location " Bridge of Avon ". I came upon this one being miss-named during research the other day.

From their local knowledge they will confirm that this memorial is that of Inveravon Parish. The names on it, together with Glenlivet ( 55 from WW1 and 11 from WW2 ) is the total for Inveravon confirmed in other sources.

Up until 1953 Glenlivet was a quod sacra parish of Inveravon. UKNIWM are now aware of this.


Adam


Quote:
If I'm reading this correctly it is not the Parish of Inveravon memorial because the parish has another memorial at Glenlivet.


I fear you have misunderstood and not read the detail on the other post, given above. Although answering a slightly different question the details are relevant. Inveravon was / is the main parish, Glenlivet was a quod sacra of it until recent times.
That being the case, it is not the exception, the four names are not needed and may confuse things.

It should be Parish of Inveravon, with one other location, if required as you suggest / I agree. I had indicated a choice, like those existing examples quoted.

If you want to add the community or local district that would be Ballindalloch or Delnashaugh. I suspect Ballindalloch is easier found on a map.

The UKINWM details, if added, provides the precice location on the A95. They are aware Bridge of Avon is not the parish name.

BRIDGE OF AVON
UKNIWM Ref: 8644

Address
A95
DELNASAUGH
GRAMPIAN
SCOTLAND

Type: CROSS
Other Location Details: HAIRPIN BEND ON A95 ABERLOUR-GRANTOWN ROAD

OS Map Ref: NJ 185 354
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If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim

OK I think Iím starting to get to the bottom of this. I donít know this area at all so please bear with me.

Glenlivet is now its own parish and currently has nothing to do with Inveravon. There are no other civic memorials in Inveravon parish.

Google maps recognises Ballindalloch but OS doesnít. OS only shows it as Ballindalloch castle

OS doesnít recognise Inveravon and Google maps highlights Inveravon Primary School at Ballindalloch.

Both OS and Google maps show Bridge of Avon.

The memorial does not sit in a village. It sits half way between Bridge of Avon and Ballindalloch.

Neither OS nor Google maps recognise Delnashaugh, so where does that name come from which Moray Council is using?

Given all the above then the title should be Parish of Inveravon and the largest community nearby so people know where it is if they donít recognise Inveravon. In that case it should be either Parish of Inveravon, Ballindalloch; or Parish of Inveravon, Bridge of Avon; or an alternative could be Parish of Inveravon, Ballindalloch & Bridge of Avon

Regards

Adam
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 11:50 am    Post subject: Inveravon War Memorial Reply with quote

Adam

I am well aquianted with the area and records thereof.

Quote:
Glenlivet is now its own parish and currently has nothing to do with Inveravon. There are no other civic memorials in Inveravon parish.


This is not the case.


I don't have the early history to hand now, but long before 1900 you had Inveravon Parish with Glenlivet Parish as a quod sacra parish of it. In 1953 Glenlivet reverted to be included in Inveravon. This accounts for two memorials circa 192?.
I am aware ( from a record) the total casualties for the The Parish of Inveravon relates to the total names of of both memorials. Can advise details later if desired.

The Glenlivet one is at the hamlet of Tomnavoulin and the main Inveravon one at the main road junction near the Delnashaugh Inn in the district of Ballindalloch, with castle nearby. You should see all these on
a map.

The bridge over the River Avon (old & new) is slightly further from the memorial, past Delnashaugh Inn.

On Google maps the memorial is at the " Y " junction on a hairpin bend where the B9008 leaves the A85. You will see Bridge of Avon shown on the other side of the river. Tomnavoulin is on the B9008, and not shown.


As advised Delnashaugh and Bridge of Avon relate to local landmarks.

It should be Parish of Inveravon, Ballindalloch
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Roxy
Moderator - Morayshire


Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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Location: Elgin, Moray

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't intend to get into a discussion regarding Moray (and previously Banffshire) parish boundaries. My concern is that someone attempting to use our site to get details of a relative of theirs may not find the appropriate memorial if there are a number of different naming conventions - as there appears to be in Moray with regards to council, parish and UKNIWM.

I'm inclined to agree with Adam

"Here's my suggestion Delnashaugh (Ballindalloch, Bridge of Avon), Parish of Inveravon"

as it covers all bases. It may take me a while to resolve the list; please bear with me.

Roxy
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Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan.
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dhubthaigh
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought we had resolved this issue as per Jim's second post in this thread. I think we should name them to reflect accuracy i.e Parish of .....
but clarify with its present location if required. I've said that elsewhere and maintained that.
That is the way I've done the lists for Perthshire, Dundee & Angus, Fife, Central, Shetlands and Aberdeenshire. I dont think it has been too honerous although errors may still exist.

Inveravon.-- par. and hamlet, Banffshire - par. (partly also in Elginshire), 48,970 ac., pop. 2568; the hamlet is at the confluence of the Avon and the Spey, 1Ĺ mile NE. of Ballindalloch sta.

Ballindalloch, a hamlet and an estate in Inveravon parish

(John Bartholomew, Gazetteer of the British Isles (1887)

I don't want to confuse things though.
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Roxy
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would have been the case if:

a. The memorial mentioned 'Inveravon' on it. It does not.
b. UKNIWM refered to it as 'The Parish of Inveravon'. It refers to it as 'Bridge of Avon'
c. Moray Council refered to it as 'Inveravon'. It calls it 'Delnashaugh'.

My point is, do we refer to memorials by their local town or parish, or by the name used by the council that owns or maintains them, or by the name used by the UKNIWM, or by the words on the memorial, or by a mixture of all, or (flippantly of course Wink) do I make up a name for them.

As I mentioned before - as Adam suggested - if we use all available clues, then the memorial is more likely to be found by people visiting the site. If I looked for 'The Parish of Inveravon' War Memorial, I would not find it on the Moray Council website nor the UKNIWM site nor (at the moment) here. By using Adam's suggestion, it would be found (almost) regardless of what the individual put into their search engine.

Surely that would be a good thing?

Roxy
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Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan.
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dhubthaigh
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roxy,

The bosses will not doubt have the final say. I just put my point over but do as you think right. I believe a newspaper report of the unveiling would clarify the situation. Thats why I'm pretty confident (for Perthshire anyway) that they are correctly named

rgds.,
Mark
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Roxy
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark,

You make a good point re the unveiling ceremony. I would be interested what, if anything, is available with regards to 'the memorial'.

Are you truly convinced that all the Perthshire memorials have a consistent naming policy with UKNIWM/local councils/etc? If they are; well done all in Perthshire!

Roxy
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Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan.
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dhubthaigh
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roxy wrote:
Mark, Are you truly convinced that all the Perthshire memorials have a consistent naming policy with UKNIWM/local councils/etc? If they are; well done all in Perthshire! Roxy


Roxy. They may not be consistent with UKNIWM/local councils etc. But I'm right - I can assure you Wink
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:01 pm    Post subject: Inveravon War Memorial Reply with quote

I have to agree with dhubthaigh, the format in Perthshire is parish / location.

Parish has been the prime listing used on this site from the outset, with current UKNIWM details.
In fact, if you check you will find the same is true for Aberdenshire and, in the main Moray. I quoted Moray examples but they appear to have gone un-noticed.

I am struggling to understand how the naming convention of Moray Council ( or any other Council for than matter) now comes into it.

Anyone interested in geneology will know it is the Parish of Inveravon ( sometimes Inveraven). I am unsure what more evidence is required. Inveravon is easily found on the Internet, etc.

Quote:
UKNIWM refered to it as 'The Parish of Inveravon'. It refers to it as 'Bridge of Avon'

As already pointed out, they will want to change it to Inveravon given the relevant details. They already have them.


Quote:
Delnashaugh (Ballindalloch, Bridge of Avon), Parish of Inveravon


I am not sure this is a serious proposition! Adam did say OK I think Iím starting to get to the bottom of this. That was not the case and the whole thing was clarified later as dhubthaigh points out.

Regardless of how many add ons you decide to give it, Parish of Inveravon would be at the beginning.

Adam
If you want more on the casualties, please send me a PM.

Hopefully, a map of Inveravon ( Inveraven) Parish as it was after Glenlivet was restored will help. On it you will find Inveravon Kirk.



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If ye break faith with us who die
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In Flanders fields.

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Last edited by kinnethmont on Tue May 12, 2009 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Roxy
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim,

The naming convention of the Moray Council (or any other council for that matter) must come into it as they own the memorials. They call their memorial Delnashaugh. I am not interested in geneology; I am interested in war memorials. Until you mentioned it, I had never heard of the parish of Inveravon: I had heard of UKNIWM and the Moray Council.

But, as I said, I am only using Bridge of Avon as a tool to ascertain what, if any, naming convention we should use for posting our threads.

Roxy
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Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan.
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:37 pm    Post subject: Inveravon War Memorial Reply with quote

Quote:
But, as I said, I am only using Bridge of Avon as a tool to ascertain what, if any, naming convention we should use for posting our threads.


Roxy

If you are interested in War Memorials you should be, by default, interested in their history. War memorials were raised in rural areas for / by the parish concerned, usually public subscription.

This is slightly complicated at Inveravon because there were two at the time, one a " daughter " of the other, since united. This may have some bearing on the fact the inscription at Inveravon is as it is.

It is well known Council and RBLS lists often refer to them by their physical location.

I am not sure why you are still seeking the naming convention to be used here. As several have pointed out, it is well established ie. Parish concerned, with possibly a location in addition.
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If ye break faith with us who die
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In Flanders fields.

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