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Lest Scotland Forgets
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Adam Brown
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7312
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:40 am    Post subject: Lest Scotland Forgets Reply with quote

David sent me a link to this project below.

http://www.historyandpolitics.stir.ac.uk/research/documents/LestScotlandForgets-webpages.pdf

It's a Stirling University project running for the next seven years and they hope to have it completed by November 1918.

We get a mention as a discussion forum. I don't believe we've been just that for about four and a half years, but no matter.

Anyway have a look and see what they are up to. Half of it looks very like what we have been doing for the last five years.

They have a school tie in but only for five schools nationwide. Very ambitious.

Since we are a discussion forum maybe we should have some discussion about it! I'll kick it off. Does anyone else have difficulty saying 'Lest Scotland Forgets'!

Cheers

Adam
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dalblair



Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Posts: 564
Location: coupar angus

PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In view of their step by step/council by council approach after their trial in Stirling perhaps they can be asked to advise the Forum when they intend to tackle other areas.This could direct the research in ways which would avoid duplication of effort and help both the Forum and this project to provide as much info as possible for users.We`ll all get more out if they/we collaborate as we have already been doing!!
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Kenneth Morrison



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 7749
Location: Rockcliffe Dalbeattie

PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this the means of preserving our photo images?
I know this has been discussed elsewhere, and maybe it's because I'm approaching my 3 score years and ten at what seems an alarming rate, but I don't think we have ever really faced the problem of depending upon the usage of photo-hosting sites.
Could this project be the answer?

The question for me is how do we liase with the Lest Scotland Forgets team? Are we, as a Project, already in touch? Are they aware of the scale of the number of images and content we already have available?
OK that's more than one question Rolling Eyes

At first sight this looks like a way of ensuring that all the hard work done over the last few years continues to be made available.
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Adam Brown
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Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gents

No-one from here has been contacted by the LSF team. Given that we have already recorded about 4,000 Scottish war memorials I would have thought it would have been a no-brainer to see if we could have been some use.

I don't think the LSF project is a solution to preserving the images. From what I read on their pdf it seems they are going to use 'Flicker' (must be Flickr) to host the images, which leaves them at the same mercy we are. I would have thought with funding they could have aimed for something a bit more permanent. Perhaps that is their intention in the long term.

I agree with both though, the worst thing that could happen is a duplication of effort. That was one of the reasons why this forum was set up in the first place. It was somewhere where people could share their photos and information so that others wouldn't have to do the same trip / research.

I'm planning to e-mail the LSF people later on to see what their plans are. It seems daft to ignore all the information we have collected over the last few years just to start from scratch on what is essentially the same sort of project. It will just cause confusion and a waste of effort.

Many of our members have been doing 'record-linkage' too. Thousands of men and women listed on Scottish War memorials have had their details recorded here by our members.

Lets not forget the War Graves project. We have thousands of individual war memorials on there too; where headstones carry the inscriptions of war dead who died overseas. Not a peep about that when they describe what they are recording...

"...but also commemorative buildings, gardens, furniture, charitable funds, bursaries and scholarships, hospital wards, concerts, paintings, music, poetry, prose and ceremonies. In other words we aim to produce a database of the full range of types of memorialisation of the Great War, from ‘artistic’ to ‘utilitarian’."

Perhaps they hadn't thought of the gravestones as a source of memorialisation?

Thanks

Adam
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DerekR
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Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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Location: Hawick, Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam Brown wrote:

No-one from here has been contacted by the LSF team. Given that we have already recorded about 4,000 Scottish war memorials I would have thought it would have been a no-brainer to see if we could have been some use.


My thoughts exactly.
And the fact that they have listed this website as a "discussion Forum" suggests to me that they've not really appreciated all that has been done here. Or even appreciated just how much has been done.
This leads me to suspect that they are just going to duplicate a great deal of the groundwork everyone here has already done.
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They appear to be totally unaware of what has been done here, either that, or they intend to record memorials in another way, possibly by using a consistant format.
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If ye break faith with us who die
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In Flanders fields.

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apanderson
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mmmmmm Confused

It's quite possible they will want to keep the project as 'their baby' and although acknowledgements are made to other various sources of information, I get the impression it's very much intended to 'stand alone'.

I totally agree that it would be both extremely stupid and a HUGE waste of time and effort to start from scratch with undoubtedly a more or less duplicated effort.

Of course if something was to happen to both our projects and they were to go down the 'swanee', this new venture would very handily replace everything (except war graves possibly).

Maybe it's time for us to think about a more permanant type of site or 'master database'?

What think ye?

Anne

P.S. There's absolutely nothing to stop anyone from going through both our sites and copying every snippet of info, pictures too (unless watermarked) - what a starter for 10 for anyone!! Or am I just a tad cynical?
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Kenneth Morrison



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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Location: Rockcliffe Dalbeattie

PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't disagree with anything said so far - but there are a lot of "what ifs".
Until we aware of what and how much they are aware of just what is sitting under their nose then I cannot see how to progress.
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dhubthaigh
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, good luck to them. I wonder how many volunteers they will be able to call upon in their venture. During the last four and a half years the SWMP has mainly been a 'hard core' who have spent hours travelling around, making enquiries, conducting research etc. If we could possibly collaborate then that may be the most sensible way forward and beneficial to us all, especially If they are to have an open database. I wonder what level of funding is being allocated to the project ? Interesting indeed.
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David McNay
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it surely makes sense for them to liaise with us. We've done a massive amount of work, and it seems to me they are planning to do work where we've already done the work.

It would b beneficial to them to collaborate in some way as it means a lot of their groundwork is done, and it also means we might possibly have the means of permanently storing our data, and having something meaningful done with it (which has always been a goal of myself and Adam).

Having said that...Adam and I have plans (which we're in the early stages of discussion) about how we can take the War Memorials and War Graves Projects to a new level. Obviously I'd like to see us go our own way and retain control of the work we've done, but that doesn't rule out collaboration on some scale.
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DerekR
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Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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Location: Hawick, Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The more I've thought about this, the more I've became annoyed.

I don't know any of these people. I have never heard of any of them, despite their alleged interests in the Great War.
None of them have shown their faces on this website, none of them, to my knowledge, have contributed anything here. (or on any other Great War websites I know).

And yet, due to the patronage of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, they are looking to duplicate what we have done in the last four years.
The person controlling the purse strings at the Royal Society of Edinburgh needs to have a better look at those from academia who want to pursue goals already nearly fulfilled in Scotland.

With my cynical head on, I wonder how much they are getting from the Scottish people just to duplicate most of what we have already done happily for nothing.
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DerekR
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

apanderson wrote:
There's absolutely nothing to stop anyone from going through both our sites and copying every snippet of info, pictures too (unless watermarked) - what a starter for 10 for anyone!! Or am I just a tad cynical?


Yes you are but I was just thinking just the same! Wink
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Jim



Joined: 30 May 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DerekR wrote:
..........
And yet, due to the patronage of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, they are looking to duplicate what we have done in the last four years.
The person controlling the purse strings at the Royal Society of Edinburgh needs to have a better look at those from academia who want to pursue goals already nearly fulfilled in Scotland.

.......................... .


A wee note to them to that effect followed, if required, by a Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act request, should concentrate their minds.

We're constantly being reminded that the public purse is overstretched at the moment and the suggestion that it's being used to duplicate work already done would attract the attention of the media.

I hate the term Big Society but this forum is a perfect example of what big society ought to be. A group of like-minded individuals coming together in common cause to work voluntarily on a project which otherwise wouldn't happen.
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goodness knows what the funding from the RSE is actually for?

I suspect Stirling University have a small budget for engaging the public in projects run by the university. Edinburgh University have it, that's where the money for 'Edinburgh's War' came from. (It's probably some tax break!)

Why did the RSE get involved? They fund various activities so the LSF project must have met the criteria for one of their funds.

Anyway. before we get too carried away we've got to remember that the LSF scope restricts them to the Great War but we cover all wars. That means although we have some common ground we do ultimately have different aims.

I have got four e-mail addresses for LSF project members and I will contact them tonight. They work for Stirling University so goodness knows when they will pick up the mail since I assume they are on their summer break.

The ball will then be in their court if they want to involve the SWMP in their own project.

Cheers

Adam
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Adam Brown
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
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Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David McNay wrote:
Adam and I have plans (which we're in the early stages of discussion) about how we can take the War Memorials and War Graves Projects to a new level.


This concerns this...

apanderson wrote:
Maybe it's time for us to think about a more permanant type of site or 'master database'?


The long-term security of the forums and the data on them is a worry to us all. The problem has always been time and money. We just don't have enough of either.

It's too early to go into detail, and another thread is probably a more appropriate place, but both David and I now think we need to look at securing funding and all the scary things that entails.

More discussion will be needed around this but lets take it to another thread if we want to discuss it further. Lets keep this thread on-topic about LSF.

Thanks

Adam
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