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Jospeh Graham, Langholm

 
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:55 am    Post subject: Jospeh Graham, Langholm Reply with quote

This is a bit different from the usual non-comemorations. He may actually be commemorated by CWGC but there are enough differences to cast doubt on the matter.

Here is the background taken from the Langolm thread

Joseph Graham is listed in SNWM but not CWGC. On the Langholm War Memorial his unit is given as Blue Cross.

GRAHAM, Joseph
Service Number: SE/4278
Date Death: 30/08/1916
Place of birth: Langholm, Dumfries
SNWM roll: VARIOUS CORPS.
Rank: Pte
Theatre of death: Egypt.

There is a man listed on CWGC with a similar number, a date of death similar to the one above and who died in Egypt. The Blue Cross was a sort or Red Cross for animals so the unit Army Veterinary Corps ties in with the War Memorial unit. Unfortunately there are no next of kin details provided to help.

GRAHAM, J
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Army Veterinary Corps
Unit Text: 16th Vet. Hosp.
Date of Death: 03/08/1916
Service No: SE/4272
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: F. 143.
Cemetery: CAIRO WAR MEMORIAL CEMETERY

On the Langholm thread Jim Grant has been lookng into the matter and has checked various sources. Here are his findings:

kinnethmont wrote:
Adam

I rather think they are the same man but it is not possible to be absolutely certain due to differing information from various sources. There could be two men.

CWGC have a Pte SE/4272 J Graham, Army Veterinary Corps died Egypt on 3rd August 1916. I have confirmed this is the date CWGC were given. No details were provided by his NOK.

SNWM have a Pte SE/4278 Joseph Graham, b Langholm died Egypt 30th August 1916.

SDGW have Pte SE/4278 Joseph Graham, b Langholm, e Galashiels, Royal Army Veterinary Corps died Egypt 30th August 1916.

Thus, we have a 2 x J Walker in the same unit, died in the same theatre but on different dates with different numbers.

An MIC for a Joseph D Walker shows he was Pte SE/4272 R.A.V.C. and the card has Died 30/8/1916 on it. He arrived in theatre 3 ( Egypt) on 16th March 1915.

Only one death of a Joseph Walker is recorded at GROS in 1916 and unfortunately the details do not resolve the mystery.
R.A.V.C. Pte SE/4278, age 31 born Scotland died 30th August 1916 in Egypt ( Appendix abcess).
Had the number been 4272 CWGC might have changed their record, but proof positive is required. In the circumstances they would leave them, as is.

I feel sure the GROS number is wrong because that R.A.V.C number was issued to a George A Buswell who served in France.

If you come across any family notification / medal paperwork, etc it could be looked at again


Last edited by Adam Brown on Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:02 am; edited 2 times in total
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because of the doubt, and becaue there is a GROS entry for a Jospeph Graham dying in Eypt on 30.08.1916 is there a case for this man to be commemorated by the CWGC?

There is enough doubt and no evidence to say they are the same man so should the SE/4278 Joseph Graham be commemorated too until it can be confirmed they are / aren't the same man?

Jim, can you suggest what CWGC might do in this case?

Regards

Adam
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a quick update from the Langholm thread. I have combined two posts into one. For the full discussion you can see it here

Stewartry wrote:
Re Joseph Graham

It may be worth emailing the reference department at the Ewart Library, Dumfries. The Dumfries & Galloway Standard is indexed, so a search for Graham, Joseph will show whether there was a report of his death or a death notice in August/September 1916 - either of these should sort out the date discrepancy...for personal knowledge of the true date.

Cheers,

Stuart
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stuart

I have e-mailed the Ewart Library as you suggested. They are open on a Saturday.

Regards

Adam
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 6:28 pm    Post subject: Pte Joseph Graham, R.A.V.C. Reply with quote

Quote:
Because of the doubt, and becaue there is a GROS entry for a Jospeph Graham dying in Eypt on 30.08.1916 is there a case for this man to be commemorated by the CWGC?


Adam
Your suggestion is slightly mischievous since we already know that the number on GROS ( SE/4278 ) was issued to George Buswell, also RAVC, and he was in France.
It appears the number given to GROS for Joseph Graham, supplied by his unit, was a clerical error since they have given CWGC the correct number, or at least one which ties with an MIC in the name of Joseph D Graham, RAVC who went to the Egypt theatre in 1915.



Quote:
There is enough doubt and no evidence to say they are the same man so should the SE/4278 Joseph Graham be commemorated too until it can be confirmed they are / aren't the same man?

Jim, can you suggest what CWGC might do in this case?


As you write, there is doubt but no evidence either way. That remains the problem until " proof positive " evidence turns up, if ever it can.

There is nothing that CWGC can do. Names cannot be added " just in case " and removed at a later date if supporting evidence does not materialise, they do not deal in " if and maybe ".

A Death Certificate, in itself, does not mean the man named can be commemorated, but it does mean the process can be started. In the suggestion you make we have already discovered the number SE/4278 does not relate the the man named, Joseph Graham, but to another man who I believe survived.
There is a common misconception that CWGC approve names for admission to their Roll. This is not the case. Then as now, they record those names approved by the military authorities. They would quickly realise the contradictions we have found in this case and reject it.
CWGC are not charged with researching posible additions, that is down to the likes of us, i'm afraid.

As advised previously, the only option open now involves correspondence with the NOK. If you know of living relatives I would be interested, as that might open another avenue for checking.

If anything more comes up I will add it here as an update.

7th June
A Joseph Graham was born 17 Nov 1884 at Eskdale St., Langholm. A Joseph D Graham is in the same household in 1891 and a farm servant locally in 1901. He may have been given his mother's middle name of Douglas, it is not on his B Cert.
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DerekR
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any updates on this?
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Kenneth Morrison



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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was in the Ewart Library in Dumfries today when one of the staff was dealing with an equiry about this man. Before I refer them to this discussion could I just check that Jim's reference to Joseph D Walker is a typo?
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not a typo, according to the " gospel " at Ancestry he was Joseph D. That said, errors abound on there.

It is probably correct. You will find the actual Census record on Scotlandspople for a small fee
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Kenneth Morrison



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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry - I didn't make myself clear. It was the name WALKER I was asking about. The guys name was GRAHAM.
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken

Sorry, Walker was a typo which was repeated. The original detail at Langholm is correct
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if this matter was ever resolved because of Jim's illness?

Does anyone know what happened here?

Thanks

Adam
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Kenneth Morrison



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doesn't resolve the date of death issue as far as his CWGC entry is concerned but every record now has SE/4272 as his service number and his Medal Roll and Medal Card, and the Soldiers effects Register all have 30 August 1916 as the date he died.
I cannot find any mention of him in Borders or D&G newspapers.

Joseph Douglas Graham age 32 Private (SE/4272) 16th Veterinary Hospital, Army Veterinary Corps.
Joseph was a railway porter at Bowland near Galashiels when he married in 1907 as Joseph Douglas Graham. He landed in Egypt on 16 March 1915 but died in the Nasrieh Hospital in Cairo.
Born 1884 in Langholm, Dumfriesshire as Joseph Graham. Son of the late Police Constable John Graham and of the late Mary Forsyth Douglas (Connel) Graham.
Husband of Mary (Braid) Graham of Tweedbank, Melrose, Roxburghshire who he married in 1907 in Melrose.
Died on Service on 30 August 1916 and buried in Cairo War Memorial Cemetery, Egypt.
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