The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project

A.N.Other · Joined: 29 Aug 2012 Posts: 46

SCOTTISH NATIONAL WAR MEMORIAL
Roll of Honour,1914-1918
NEW ZEALAND EXPEDITIONARY FORCE

14 NAMES WHO WERE NOT BORN IN SCOTLAND

01 Burnett,David,8/1420,Pte.,Otago Regt.,KIA,Gallipoli,08/05/1915.
b.27/12/1892 at Peebles,N.Z.,m.Mrs.A.J.B.,1 Winchester St.,Christchurch.
name on Chunuk Bair(N.Z.) Memorial,Anzac,Gallipoli,Turkey.Ref.15.Labourer,P.
+++Burnett,David Hardy,B1893/5242 N.Z.,f.James,m.Annie Jane.

02 Burnett,George Francis,23/86,Rflmn.,1st bn.3rd NZRB.,KIA,F.,05/04/1918.
b.19/11/1892 at Peebles,N.Z.,m.Mrs.A.J.B.,Christchurch,N.Z.
Xbrd.,Euston Road Cemetery,Colincamps,Somme,France.gr.ref.IV.D.9. Shepherd,P.
+++Burnett,George Francis,B1891/6370 N.Z.,f.James,m.Annie Jane.

03 Chalmers(aka Chambers),Frederick William,21489,Rflmn.,2nd bn.3rd NZRB.,KIA,B.,21/06/1917.
b.26/07/1895 in N.Z.,parents,Mr.& Mrs.W.C.,20 Brentwood Ave.,Mount Eden,Auckland.
brd.,Strand Military Cemetery,Comines-Warneton,Hainaut,Belgium.gr.ref.VI.B.17. Driver,P.
+++Chambers,Frederick William,B1892/8952 N.Z.,f.Alfred William,m.Frances Kate.

04 Fraser,William Patterson,5/688,L/Cpl.,N.Z.MG.bn.,KIA,Le Cateau,23/10/1918.
b.26/08/1892 in N.Z.,f.Thomas C.,m.Elizabeth F.,12 Normanby St.,Dunedin.
brd.,Romeries Communal Cemetery Extn.,Nord,France.gr.ref.VI.A.14. Accountant,P.
+++Fraser,William Patterson,B1892/14603 N.Z.,f.Thomas Campbell,m.Elizabeth.

05 Gebbie,Norman William Thomas,18888,Pte.,2nd Auck.Regt.,KIA,B.,17/04/1917.
b.08/10/1893 in N.Z.,f.Herbert,m.Emma G.,Francis St.,Grey Lynn,Auckland.
brd.,Berks Cemetery Extn.,comines-Warneton,Hainaut,Belgium.gr.ref.I.L.25.** Chemist's Asst.,C.E.
+++Gebbie,Norman William Thomas,B1895/11441 N.Z.,f.Heber,m.Emma.

06 Haining(aka McGowan,W.),William,10/218,Pte.,17th Coy.Well.Regt.,KIA,Gallipoli,08/05/1915.
b.03/12/1884 in N.Z.,br.James,Mitcheltown,Wellington,n.o.k.Mrs.Margaret Russell,Taranaki St.,Well.
name on Twelve Tree Copse(N.Z.) Memorial,Cape Helles,Gallipoli,Turkey. Driver,P.
+++Haining,William,B1887/13464 N.Z.,f.William,m.Sarah.

07 Halliday,Corril Common,15103,Pte.,1st Otago Regt.,KIA,B.,03/12/1917.
b.10/08/1895 at Albertown,N.Z.,f.John,m.Elizabeth H.,Albert Town,Otago.
name on Buttes New British Cemetery(N.Z.) Memorial,Polygon Wood,W.Vlaa.,Belgium. Farm Labourer,P.
+++Halliday,Corril Common,B1895/376 N.Z.,f.John,m.Elizabeth.

08 Laing,James Duncan,32862,Cpl.,4th bn.3rd NZRB., KIA,F.,30/03/1918. ht.6'-1",ch.39".
b.18/10/1895 at Southland,N.Z.,m.Mrs.Charlotte or William Walker(frly.L.),Dipton,Invercargill.
name on Grevillers(N.Z.) Memorial,Pas-de-Calais,France. Labourer,P.
+++Laing,James Duncan,B1894/15373 N.Z.,f.James Duncan,m.Charlotte.

09 McFarlane,David James,33579,Pte.,3rd Well.Regt.,KIA,B.,08/07/1917.
b.22/07/1880 at Auckland,N.Z.,f.David,m.Margaret M.,Auckland,N.Z.
brd.,Motor Car Corner Cemetery,Comines-Warneton,Hainaut,Belgium.gr.ref.C.17. Labourer,P.
+++McFarlane,David James,B1880/9060 N.Z.,f.David,m.Margaret.

10 McKenzie,Murdock,4/1300A,Spr.,1st Fld.Coy.NZE.,KIA,Gallipoli,19/05/1915.
b.11/07/1889 in N.Z.,f.late Murdoch,m.Catherine M.,Onslow St.,Gore,Invercargill,native of Balfour,Inverc.
name on Lone Pine Memorial,Anzac,Gallipoli,Turkey.Ref.72.** Labourer,P.
+++MacKenzie,Murdock James,B1889/11061 N.Z.,f.Murdoch,m.Catherine.

11 McKenzie,William,6/3805,L/Cpl.,13th Coy.2nd Cant.Regt.,KIA,B.,12/10/1917.
b.02/05/1895 in N.Z.,parents,f.William,m.Mrs.J.R.M.,Rotowaro,Huntly,Hamilton.
name on Tyne Cot Memorial,Zonnebeke,W.Vlaanderen,Belgium.N.Z.Apse,Panel 2.** Miner,P.
+++McKenzie,William,B1895/13816 N.Z.,f.William,m.Joanna McKenzie,parents M1893/827 N.Z.

12 Tobin,Thomas,24/920,Rflmn.,2nd bn.3rd NZRB.,KIA,B.,18/06/1917.
b.29/06/1880 in N.Z.,f.Dennis,m.Helena Marion T.,274 Taranaki St.,Wellington.
name on Messines Ridge(N.Z.) Memorial,Mesen,W.Vlaanderen,Belgium. Labourer,R.C.
+++Tobin,Thomas,B1880/12606 N.Z.,f.Dennis,m.Ellen.

13 Watt,John William,24421,Cpl.,14th Coy.2nd N.Z.Ent.bn.,KIA,B.,14/04/1918.
b.14/09/1893 at Ngapara,N.Z.,f.John,m.Isabella W.,Charleston,Otekaieke,North Otago.
name on Messines Ridge(N.Z.) Memorial,Mesen,W.Vlaanderen,Belgium.** Farmer,P.
+++Watt,John William,B1893/15861 N.Z.,f.John,m.Isabella.

14 White,George Daly,10/2358,Pte.,1st N.Z,Bde.MG.Coy.,KIA,B.,04/10/1917.
b.01/06/1882 in N.Z.,parents,Mr.& Mrs.Thomas W.,7 Buchanan St.,br.T.J.W.,Gasworks,both Timaru.
name on Tyne Cot Memorial,Zonnebeke,W.Vlaanderen,Belgium.N.Z.Apse,Panel 9. Labourer,P.
+++White,George Daly,B1874/13510 N.Z.

Keptie · Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:30 am Post subject: NZ

I recall that to get ones name on the SNWM at the Castle in Edinburgh you have to be BORN in Scotland OR one of your parents was born in Scotland

pwa

spoons · Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:29 pm Post subject:

hmmm......I thought that you either had to serve in a Scottish Regiment or be born in Scotland yourself.

\Paul

Kenneth Morrison · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:14 am Post subject:

Pat is correct.

From http://www.snwm.org/content/about-history/#rolls

A form of words was agreed which would provide the criteria for admission to the Rolls. Brought up to date this now reads:

"A member of the Armed Forces of the Crown or of the Merchant Navy who was either a Scotsman (i.e. born in Scotland or who had a Scottish born father or Mother) or served in a Scottish Regiment and was killed or died (except as a result of suicide) as a result of a wound, injury or disease sustained (a) in a theatre of operations for which a medal has been or is awarded; or (b) whilst on duty in aid of the Civil Power."
_________________
Ken

A.N.Other · Joined: 29 Aug 2012 Posts: 46

After Kenneth Morrison's statement,it would appear that the Scottish National War Memorial is being run by FIFA with the Motto " We're all Jock Tamson's Bairns" !

Kenneth Morrison · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:16 pm Post subject:

The only statement I have made is that "Pat is correct".
The other information (as I have made clear) is directly from the SNWM site. The criteria for inclusion in the Rolls of Honour have been consistent from day one and to infer that this is otherwise is insulting not only to the Trustees of the Memorial but also to the memory of those who are listed.
_________________
Ken

A.N.Other · Joined: 29 Aug 2012 Posts: 46

I think we should rename it The Dilutee Scottish National War Memorial and at the same time add a few more qualifying categories to it e.g. :- If you like Lorne Sausages,own a wee "Scotty" Dug or drink Belhaven Beer.

apanderson · Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:14 am Post subject:

I'm presuming by your comment above that you have undertaken further research on each of the individual's families and have come to your conclusion after finding that neither of their parents were born in Scotland?

We (frequently) come across names listed on memorials up and down the country which can at first appear to have absolutely nothing to do with Scotland, but with further research we can usually establish a connection even if tenuous.

I'd rather see someone commemorated somewhere than nowhere at all but in saying that, that's just my personal opinion and like you, I'm perfectly entitled to have it.

Anne

A.N.Other · Joined: 29 Aug 2012 Posts: 46

Here are the Great and the Good of the Founding Committee of the SNWM.
Not Many Campaign Medals amongst this lot.
It reminds me of the mocking statement of a Leader addressing his Troops,
"The Regiment is going Overseas, I shall be going with you; as far as the Jetty ".

The Original Setting up Committee of the Scottish National War Memorial

8th Duke of Atholl, John George Stewart-Murray(1871 - 1942)

The Rt.Hon.Lord Carmichael ?

The Admiral C-in-C at Rosyth ?
.
The Lord Provosts of Edinburgh,Glasgow,Aberdeen,Dundee and Perth.

The Rt.Hon.William Adamson(1863 - 1936),Labour MP for Fife,West.

The Rt.Hon.6th Lord Balfour of Burleigh,Alexander Hugh Bruce.(1849 - 1921).

James Brown,MP ?

Sir John Burnet,architect(1857 - 1938)

Lt./Col.Donald Walter Cameron of Lochiel,25th Chief of Clan Cameron(1876 - 1951).

David Erskine of Lintrathen ?

General Sir Spencer Ewart(1861 - 1930)
The General Officer C-in-C,Scottish Command.

Sir John Ritchie Findlay,K.B.E.,proprietor of the Scotsman(1866 - 1930)

The Rt.Hon.Lord Glenconner,2nd Bt.,Sir Edward Priaulx Tennant(1859 - 1920),
MP.Lib.,Salisbury,Lord Lieutenant of Peeblesshire.

The Rt.Hon.Sir John Hay Athole MacDonald,KCB,PC,AMR,VD,LLD,FRSS.(1836
- 1919)Lord Chief Justice Clerk of Scotland,President of Scottish Automobile Club.

The Rt.Hon.Sir Herbert Maxwell,7th Bt.of Monreith(1845 - 1937)
MP,Con.for Wigtownshire,1880 - 1906,Privy Counsellor.

Sir Hector Munro of Foulis(1849 - 1935),11th Bt.,Colonel of 3rd bn.Seaforth
Highlanders,Lord Lieutenant of Ross & Cromarty,Aide-de-Camp to KGV.

The Rt.Hon.Lord Newlands ?

Sir William Robertson,Lord Lieutenant of Fife(1856 - 1923)

The Very Rev.Sir George Adam Smith,Doctor of Divinity(1856 - 1942)
Principal at Aberdeen University,honorary degree of Doctor of Law(LL.D.)

The Rt.Hon.Eugene Wason(1846 - 1927)
MP for Clackmannan & Kinross and a lawyer.

The Very Rev.Andrew Wallace Williamson,C.V.O.,D.D.(1856 - 1926)
1913 Moderator of C.of S.,Dean of the Chapel of the Royal Order of the Thistle.

Sir James Lawton Wingate(1846 - 1924)
Artist

Sir George Younger,MP

Cpt.George Sitwell Campbell Swinton who was appointed Secretary.(1859 - 1937)
Lord Lyon King of Arms.

Guidelines for qualification to the memorial –
"A member of the Armed Forces of the Crown or of the Merchant Navy who was either a
Scotsman (i.e. born in Scotland or who had a Scottish born father or Mother) or served in
a Scottish Regiment and was killed or died (except as a result of suicide) as a result of a
wound, injury or disease sustained (a) in a theatre of operations for which a medal has been
or is awarded; or (b) whilst on duty in aid of the Civil Power."

As far as I'm concerned there should only be one qualifying criterion for an Airman,Sailor
or Soldier getting his or her name on The Scottish National War Memorial;
"BORN IN SCOTLAND".
To bar someone for committing suicide is laughable. During my Military Research
over the past 17 years, I have come across scores of soldiers,etc. who have committed
suicide, in most cases these men have played their part in Front Line Duties,& have
been in set Battles. Every man has a breaking point.

The following Scottish born soldiers committed suicide and are commemorated on the Rolls of Honour
of Australia, Canada, New Zealand or South Africa but are not on the Scottish National War Memorial.

Beattie,Stuart Miller,13741,Pte.,3rd G.H.AAMC.,d.,suicide,drank prussic acid,Liverpool,NSW.,27/05/1918.
Beddie,James,3017A,Pte.,Aust.Corps School,d.,suicide,gsw.to face & skull,Aus.Corps School,04/05/1918.
Bell,William John,53,Sgt.,1st L H.Fld.Amb.,d.suicide,cut his throat with a razor,Moascar,Palestine,25/05/1918.
Brown,Robert,408566,Lt.,3rd.DIV.Sig.Coy.C.E.,committed suicide,Kinmel Park,Rhyl,05/09/1919.
Cameron,Joseph Telford,1001095,L/Cpl.,43rd.Inf.bn.,d.of self inflicted w.,No.22 C.C.S.,27/10/1918.
Cruickshank,James,39768,Pte.,NZTU.,d.of siw,cut throat with razor,Featherston Military Camp,26/01/1917.
Duncan,John,748142,Pte.,117th.Inf.bn.,d.,suicide,strangulation by hanging,Sherbrooke,02/11/1917.
Easton,Robert,426042,Pte.,10th.Inf.bn.,d.,suicide,gsw.to head,6.15 a.m.,Bulford Camp,29/02/1916.
Edmond,George Gray,437017,Pte.,46th.Inf.bn.,d.,suicide,strangulation by hanging,Alberta,26/07/1919.
Gillespie,Jonathan Mackie,153404,Pte.,43rd.Inf.bn.,probable suicide,jumped from h.s.Letitia,22/03/1917.
Glennie,John Rodger,2627226,Spr.,13th.L.R.Op.Coy.C.E.,d.of self inflicted w.,incision in neck,25/05/1919.
Greig,William,1048529,Pte.,19th.Coy.CFC. ,d.of siw.,cut throat,Conches Rlwy.Station,17/07/1918.
Hardie,David,1759,Pte.,45th Inf.bn.,d.,suicide,cut his throat with a razor,Etaples,18/06/1916.
Howden,James Daniel,727635,Pte.,110th.Inf.bn.,d.,suicide by hanging,Stratford,Ontario,02/02/1917.
Hunter,Thomas,76236,Pte.,29th Inf.bn.,d.,suicide by shooting,Hastings Park,09/05/1915.
Hunter,William,17890,Cpl.,No.4 Coy.NZMGC.,d.,suicide,by hanging while depressed,Greymouth,12/01/1921.
Ingram,Fraser,754444,Sgt.,119th.Inf.bn.,d.of cut throat,evidentally siw.,Bramshott,21/01/1917.
Jamieson,Watson,2188395,Cpl.,7th.bn.CRT.,d.of siw.,cut his throat,No.91 Fld.Amb.,21/01/1918.
Kerr,Peter Brown,204383,Pte.,96th.Inf.bn.,committed suicide at Viscount,Sask.,11/03/1916.
Machattie,Daniel Hay,17/250,Cpt.,Mobile Vet.NZVC.,d.of self inflicted gsw.to head,Heliopolis,20/12/1916.
Mack,Peter,429661,Pte.,47th.Inf.bn.,d.,suicide by drowning,False Creek,Vancouver,31/01/1919.
Martin,Robert,216186,Pte.,3rd.Lab.bn.,d.suicide by drowning,Red River,Winnipeg,12-25/05/1918.
Mathers,James,2100,Pte.,35th Inf.bn.,d.,suicide,gsw.to chest,Spring Park,nr.Monteagle,01/09/1916.
McLaren,Alexander Sheriff,231225,Pte.,31st.Inf.bn.,d.,suicide,by cutting his throat,03/01/1920.
McMahon,Francis Stephen,512999,Pte.,8th.bn.CRT.,d.home,suicide,throat cut with razor,31/12/1920.
Murray,Timothy,45150,Spr.,3rd.Fld.Coy.C.E.,d.,suicide,Augsburger Haus,Thelus,17/04/1917.
Rae,John Duthie Buchan,505534,Spr.,4th.A.T.Coy.C.E.,d.of self inflicted w.,N.E.of Thelus,19/02/1918.
Reid,Edward Ogilvy,Mjr.,52nd.Inf.bn.,committed suicide at the Niagara Falls,N.Y.,USA.,15/06/1921.
Sandison,James,23882,Pte.,Well.Regt.,d.of s.i.bullet w.,whilst depressed,Somes Island,14/11/1918.
Sang,William Allister,88,Spr.,CORCC.,d.of self inflicted gsw.to head,No.10 C.C.S.,25/03/1916.
Shields,James,261182,Pte.,212th.Inf.bn.,d.suicide,cut his throat at Police Stn.Port Arthur,14/04/1916.
Shields,Wylie,2006614,Spr.,CETD.,committed suicide at 8.45 a.m.,St.Johns,Quebec,12/10/1917.
Smith,William Hamilton Aikman,63408,Pte.,4th.Inf.bn.,d.of self inflicted wounds,Shorncliffe,13/10/1915.
Stewart,James,2954,Drvr.,7th Bty.III Bde.AFA.,d.,suicide,gsw.to head,Heliopolis Cairo,04/12/1915.
Stuart,John,11/1063,Sgt.,MM,MID,NZMGC.,d.at Coal Creek,injury of heart,due to gsw.to chest,25/06/1922.
Swanson,George,12962,Pte.,3rd Inf.Bde.depot,committed suicide at Potchefstroom,24/07/1916.
Whitecross,Richard Henry,1182,Pte.,22nd Inf.bn.,d.,suicide,throat cut with a razor,No.11 A.G.H.,03/01/1918.

A.N.Other.

apanderson · Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:48 pm Post subject:

It appears you have 'issues' with SNWM!

We have nothing to do with their rules and regulations albeit we may or may not have our own personal opinions as to what may be set forth.

Our Project's aim is to record in any way we can, all military memorials up and down the length and breadth of Scotland and attempt to identify (as far as might be reasonably possible) the individuals listed on them, not to question why they might or might not be included. Nothing more, nothing less.

We are (to quote your earlier post) most definately, all Jock Tamson's bairns.

Anne

Kenneth Morrison · Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:08 am Post subject:

It really is a pity to see such detailed research wasted on pointless rants.
_________________
Ken

A.N.Other · Joined: 29 Aug 2012 Posts: 46

To whom it may concern,
Itis not a pointless rant when people who didn't take part in any action in World war 1 can withhold a person's name from appearing in the SNWM. These men who committed suicide had at least the courage to volunteer or were conscripted to defend their Country.

A.N.Other.

David McNay · Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:34 pm Post subject:

I think this discussion has run its course. If you have an issue with names not included on the SNWM then I suggest you take it up with them.