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chris greene
Joined: 16 Aug 2012
Posts: 21
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 Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:29 pm Post subject: Johnshaven War memorial |
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We have found a guy (James Ritchie Blues) who was killed in action but not mentioned on our memorial. Whose permission (if any) do we need to add his name?
Chris Greene |
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Keptie
Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 939
Location: near Arbroath Angus
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:07 pm Post subject: johnshaven War memorial |
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Hi Chris
I see that Pte 3379 James Ritchie BLUES , 1/4th Bn Black Watch , aged 26 years was killed in France /Flanders on 22 May 1915 . He was born in Lochee Forfarshire but I see on the CWGC his next of kin are shown as
son of John & Elizabeth Ritchie Blues , Johnshaven Montrose . He is listed on the CWGC index and on the SNWM at the Edinburgh Castle - Black Watch roll of honour .
I would contact the Royal British Legion Scotland branch at Montrose and also the Council and also the Black Watch Association too. A new Councillor in Kirriemuir is former Black Watch Major - Ronnie Proctor MBE (military division ) so try all these but I think that council are the ones that add the names and pay for the name to be added on the war memorial at Johnshaven
Keep onto them as they should have his name added
patrick w anderson |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:28 pm Post subject: Johnshaven War Memorial |
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Chris
| Quote: |
Whose permission (if any) do we need to add his name? |
You would need to involve the owner of the memorial. It may be Aberdeenshire Council and they have a policy for adding names.
Why should this man be added to the Benholm Parish memorial at Johnshaven? Is there any evidence that a mistake was made? SDGW shows him born Lochee and enlisted at Dundee.
Surely those who raised the memorial at the time in a rural village like Johnshaven knew very well who should be included.
_________________
Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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Kenneth Morrison
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 7755
Location: Rockcliffe Dalbeattie
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Do you know if there is a connection between RITCHIE BLUES who is on the memorial and JAMES RITCHIE BLUES ? Is it just a co-incidence ?
Or maybe I should ask which one is actually listed and which one isn't 
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Ken |
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anne park
Our first ever 2000 poster
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 21200
Location: Aberdeen
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:41 pm Post subject: Ancestry has Ritchie b 1900 in Benholm is he the one needed? |
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Name: Ritchie Blues
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1900
Relationship: Son
Mother's Name: Jane Blues
Gender: Male
Where born: Benholm, Kincardineshire
Registration number: 253
Registration district: Benholm
Civil parish: Benholm
County: Kincardineshire
Address: Mid St
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 3
Household schedule number: 42
Line: 13
Roll: CSSCT1901_81
Household Members: Name Age
Jane Blues 50
Helen Blues 21
Martha Blues 16
James Blues 14
Jessie Blues 11
Ritchie Blues 1
Jane Wood 3
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Researching WWI info from Aberdeenshire, Banffshire, Kincardineshire & Morayshire. |
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DelBoy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 4858
Location: The County of Angus
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Kenneth Morrison wrote: | Do you know if there is a connection between RITCHIE BLUES who is on the memorial and JAMES RITCHIE BLUES ? Is it just a co-incidence ?
Or maybe I should ask which one is actually listed and which one isn't |
Well they of course aren't the same person, but there must be a family connection with such unusual and similar names in such close proximity.
3379 James Blues of the B.W. residing at 3 Campbell St, Lochee is listed on Dundee roll of honour, so maybe that's why he is not listed on the memorial at Johnner?
Derek. |
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anne park
Our first ever 2000 poster
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 21200
Location: Aberdeen
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:28 pm Post subject: Ritchie Blues |
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Ritchie Blues Pte S/13989 1st Gordon Highlanders b Benholm, Kincardineshire e Aberdeen Killed in Action F & F 18-Aug-17 Thiepval Memorial M. R. 21 Pier 15B & 15C Johnshaven
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Kenneth Morrison
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 7755
Location: Rockcliffe Dalbeattie
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: Ancestry has Ritchie b 1900 in Benholm is he the one nee |
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| anne park wrote: | Name: Ritchie Blues
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1900
Relationship: Son
Mother's Name: Jane Blues
Gender: Male
Where born: Benholm, Kincardineshire
Registration number: 253
Registration district: Benholm
Civil parish: Benholm
County: Kincardineshire
Address: Mid St
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 3
Household schedule number: 42
Line: 13
Roll: CSSCT1901_81
Household Members: Name Age
Jane Blues 50
Helen Blues 21
Martha Blues 16
James Blues 14
Jessie Blues 11
Ritchie Blues 1
Jane Wood 3 |
Ritchie Blues age 1 a scholar? Mother Jane aged 50 ?????? Don't think so.
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Ken |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:20 pm Post subject: Johnshaven War Memorial |
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| Quote: | | Ritchie Blues age 1 a scholar? Mother Jane aged 50 ?????? Don't think so. |
It is simple to discover Ritchie Blues was born at Benholm in 1894 and that the Census has him as scholar, aged 7.
Not sure why we keep posting Ancestry Census records on here, lots of them are wrong and cannot be relied upon as fact.
DUNDEE COURIER: 02.06.1915
KILLED ON BROTHER'S BIRTHDAY
Mrs Blues, 3 Campbell Street, Lochee, has received a letter from a second-lieutenant stating that her son, Private James Blues, a member of the 4th Black Watch was killed in action on 23d May. Private Blues, who was 25 years of age, enlisted in "Dundee's Own" on the outbreak of war, was formerly employed as a warehouseman. Mrs Blues' younger son, Henderson Blues, is a member of the Army Service Corps. He has served twelve months with his regiment, and attained the age of 21 on the day that his brother was killed.
_________________
Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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spoons
Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4991
Location: St John's Town of Dalry
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:35 am Post subject: |
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Aberdeenshire council has appointed a War Memorials Officer:-
Graham Wall
Landscape Services Manager
T: 01467 627 621
Also check out the War Memorial Trust's helpsheet on Addition of Names
http://www.warmemorials.org/a-z/
\Paul |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:12 pm Post subject: Parish of Benholm War Memorial |
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I know Graham Wall who is aware of the Council policy on adding names.
Ritchie Blues
S/13989 Gordon Highlanders
BLUES, RITCHIE
Rank:Private
Service No:S/13989
Date of Death:18/08/1916
Regiment/Service: Gordon Highlanders
1st Bn.
Panel Reference Pier and Face 15 B and 15 C.
Memorial THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
Additional Information:
SDGW- Born Benholm, Kincardine, enlisted Aberdeen.
Born 29th April 1894 at Fore Street, Johnshaven to Thomas Blues and Jane Blues ms Mackie
James Blues
3379 Royal Highlanders
BLUES, JAMES RITCHIE
Rank: Private
Service No: 3379
Date of Death: 22/05/1915
Age: 26
Regiment/Service: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)
"A" Coy. 1st/4th Bn.
Grave Reference VI. F. 41.
Cemetery GUARDS CEMETERY, WINDY CORNER, CUINCHY
Additional Information: Son of John and Elizabeth Ritchie Blues, of Johnshaven, Montrose.
SDGW- Born Lochee, Forfarshire, enlisted Dundee
According to the news item James Blues had a brother Henderson. There was a Henderson Smith Blues born Dundee on 20th May 1894 to John and Elizabeth Blues ms Ritchie. They married at Benholm in 1885.
They had a son James Hanton Blues born Johnshaven in June 1889.
From the Census records it is clear that although born at Johnshaven James Blues only lived there a short time, if at all, residing all his life at Dundee. He did not die on his brother's birthday, as reported.
Although the two families may be connected at some point James Blues clearly has very tenuous links to Johnshaven and possibly never lived there, so therefore could not qualify for addition at the time.
Interestingly, Elizabeth Blues was a widow long before James joined the Army, but I am aware the details given on the CWGC Roll were those given by his NOK to IWGC. Why they would have changed Hanton for Ritchie or included a Johnshaven address can never be known now.
He was known to the Army as James Blues.
Those involved with Johnshaven War Memorial Committee at the time well knew who should be included and the text on the memorial very often assists with the criteria they used. In this case
TO THE
GLORY OF GOD
AND IN MEMORY OF
THE MEN OF THE
PARISH OF BENHOLM
WHO MADE
THE SUPREME SACRIFICE
IN THE GREAT WAR
1914 - 1919
_________________
Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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David McNay
Administrator
Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 11425
Location: Lanarkshire, Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:46 am Post subject: Re: Parish of Benholm War Memorial |
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| kinnethmont wrote: |
Those involved with Johnshaven War Memorial Committee at the time well knew who should be included |
No committee or organisation is infallible though. Mistakes can and do happen, you know. I don't think we can automatically assume that the list of names compiled back then is complete and 100% accurate. |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:30 pm Post subject: Parish of Benholm War Memorial |
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| Quote: | | No committee or organisation is infallible though. |
I would agree, but we have to accept they did their best and were certainly better placed than anyone living today to make a judgement.
The reasons why someone may be " missing " when viewed today are many and varied, often it was the wish of relatives they be left off.
I am increasingly concerned that there are sometimes proposals, not just on forums like this, to attempt to add names to memorials erected nearly 100 years ago because some dubious unproven link has been found. If all the facts / evidence of the original committee are found and proven evidence exists that a mistake was made, fine, assuming they meet the current criteria. Otherwise the memorial and the dead should be left alone and the original detail respected.
I think this Forum ( and others like it) should make it clear to members whether it is for creating history, recording historical fact or seeking to re-write history.
If the latter, those who are seeking to add names to memorials now might then set about getting the names of those on memorials who shouldn't be there removed.
The evidence which brought this thread about has still not been posted
_________________
Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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spoons
Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4991
Location: St John's Town of Dalry
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:54 pm Post subject: Re: Parish of Benholm War Memorial |
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| kinnethmont wrote: |
I think this Forum ( and others like it) should make it clear to members whether it is for creating history, recording historical fact or seeking to re-write history.
If the latter, those who are seeking to add names to memorials now might then set about getting the names of those on memorials who shouldn't be there removed.
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I know that some people are strongly against 're-writing history' and others take the opposite view and may wish to add names to memorials wherever appropriate but I don't think it is for a forum like this to have an 'official' position on the issue. The fact that we allow both sides of the argument to be stated openly says much for the impartiality of the project.
Personally I try to stay neutral on the subject of adding names in anything I write but of course I have my personal opinions which I don't normally state in public unless I am specifically asked for them.
\Paul |
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