The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project

spoons

there is an e-petion online at https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/406

The aim is to tighten up on metal dealers by making cash transactions illegal. I think this probably applies to England and Wales only but worth signing because if we get it into English Law then perhaps Scotland will adopt it too.

\Paul

DelBoy · Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:10 am Post subject:

Good idea. Done.

Derek.

Adam Brown · Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:55 pm Post subject:

Might be worth pointing this out to the MSP who brought the matter up in Holyrood last week. I will e-mail him later.

I have also signed.

Thanks

Adam

spoons · Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:38 pm Post subject:

Adam Brown · Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:16 pm Post subject:

Paul

Thanks, I haven't had a chance to do this yet. Glad to know it is known about at Holyrood.

Thanks

Adam

Roxy · Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:09 pm Post subject:

There was (IMHO) an interesting article from the other side of the fence today in either the Telegraph or Times. A metal recycling company boss - scrap metal dealer - intimated that there is already sufficient legislation to prevent this sort of theft; the issue is that - for whatever reason - the Police are reluctant to follow-up/arrest offenders and, to paraphrase, unless the CPS have DNA evidence that the perpetrator had the stolen metal in his/her presence, they were unlikely to prosecute. He, quite rightly IMO, suggested that someone who was prepared to risk life and limb to steal live power cable would have little issue with cashing a cheque. He also enquired what the Police were doing to find the 40 tonnes of copper cable stolen from his business.

That something should be done to prevent this sort of crime, goes without saying. We just have to make sure that what is done is productive and not just a governmental knee-jerk reaction.

Roxy
_________________
Remembering my ggf, Pte Thomas Roberts, 10 SR, killed 25 Sep 15 at Loos.
Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan.

Keptie · Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:07 pm Post subject: Metal thieves

Roxy What does the Procurator Fiscal's Service in Scotland say on this matter as the Crown Prosecution Service covers their cases in England and Wales . I agree that the PF's and Scottish Courts should be clamping down on metal thieves and hopefully too the Scottish Government will have a similar e petiton on place .

patrick w anderson

DelBoy · Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:57 am Post subject:

I think this will be the story to come in any future prosecutions. The theif will be seen as a "vulnerable" person or persons and they will not be properly punished.

I hope I'm wrong though and the profession criminals who target memorials do get the Gaol.

Alcoholic sells war memorial for £15

Derek.

Jim · Joined: 30 May 2008 Posts: 195

That rather prompts the question of what would be a proper punishment.

Kenny MacAskill has made it clear as recently as Tuesday of this week that he believes the only people sent to prison should be those thought to be a danger to society.

Whilst it might be possible for a Sheriff to view someone who steals signalling cable from the side of a railway track or electricity cable from beneath the M8 causing a fire which generated enough smoke to close the motorway for fear of crashes as a 'a danger to society', I'd be surprised if stealing bronze from a War Memorial, abhorrent as it clearly is, would be seen in the same light.

Taking the story of the alcoholic who pled to stealing the War Memorial; how do you 'properly punish' a homeless, (probably) penniless alcoholic - short of incarceration?

I don't know if anyone noticed but there was a planted question on this subject during Prime Minister's Questions yesterday. That's usually a sign Downing Street is planning an announcement.

Adam Brown · Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:03 pm Post subject:

Jim

That's an interesting post. When it comes to metal theft when do you decide the line has been crossed when it comes to stealing metal of monuments. Is stealing metal wreaths and scrolls the same as stealing a plaque with names?

What are the circumstances of the theft. Is it a desperate / homeless person who steals on the spur of a moment, or is it an opportunist gang delibertely targetting the memorial.

The one good thing I've seen recently is the Smartwater campiagn which Paul highlighted here. Hopefully it will be taken up by all those with metalwork to protect.

Adam

Jim · Joined: 30 May 2008 Posts: 195

Smartwater is an interesting way to move forward althought the Smartwater website says

"To combat the threat of theft each monument will be forensically marked with SmartWater, assigning them with a state-of-the-art forensic signature that can only be seen under UV light. Once applied SmartWater is virtually impossible to remove and can withstand burning, sand blasting and long term exposure to UV. Furthermore if a thief attempts to remove SmartWater they risk inadvertently spreading forensic evidence onto their clothes and any tools they are using. This can be used by Police to link them directly to the crime scene".

Two things jump out. There's no suggestion that Smartwater can survive melting the metal in a furnace which I reckon is the most common method of making an item of metal visually unidentifiable.

The other is that there's an implication that Smartwater is transferrable from the metal to clothing etc. It might be possible for anyone innocently touching a name on a memorial to transfer the Smartwater onto their clothing. That wouldn't condemn them as metal thief but it might be a defence in law should a genuine metal thief be found with Smartwater on their clothing.

I can only, however, assume Smartwater aren't giving all their secrets away on the website and there might be more precautions in place to overcome the points I mention.

spoons · Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:50 pm Post subject:

From http://www.inmemoriam2014.org/Home/Faq#SmartWater "Smartwater is a high temperature solution that can withstand burning or melting"

Ideally the solution would be applied in a location where people could not justifiably come in contact with it but I cannot see custodians agreeing to remove plaques to apply the smartwater to the backs but perhaps the top edges of plaques and inside any recesses of statues would be appropriate.

\Paul

Jim · Joined: 30 May 2008 Posts: 195

spoons · Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:01 pm Post subject:

I don't think it is the solution either, just a piece in the jigsaw.

I'll check up on the melting thing and get back to you.

\Paul

spoons · Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:23 pm Post subject:

I checked up on the melting issue and both the In Memoriam 2014 website and the briefing notes I have been given by the project state clearly that the product withstands melting. I notice on the Smartwater website there are links to quite a few news articles of successful prosecutions where Smartwater has been part of the evidence.

No, I don't have shares in the company but I think it is a useful contribution to the problem providing that the crooks know it is there and the police look for it in scrap yards.

The next challenge will be to tackle the vandals ..............first thought is education, any other ideas? (no mention of stocks, FP No 1 or the birch please).

\Paul