| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Adam Brown
Curator
Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 5961
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)
|
 Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:55 am Post subject: Jospeh Graham, Langholm |
 |
|
This is a bit different from the usual non-comemorations. He may actually be commemorated by CWGC but there are enough differences to cast doubt on the matter.
Here is the background taken from the Langolm thread
Joseph Graham is listed in SNWM but not CWGC. On the Langholm War Memorial his unit is given as Blue Cross.
GRAHAM, Joseph
Service Number: SE/4278
Date Death: 30/08/1916
Place of birth: Langholm, Dumfries
SNWM roll: VARIOUS CORPS.
Rank: Pte
Theatre of death: Egypt.
There is a man listed on CWGC with a similar number, a date of death similar to the one above and who died in Egypt. The Blue Cross was a sort or Red Cross for animals so the unit Army Veterinary Corps ties in with the War Memorial unit. Unfortunately there are no next of kin details provided to help.
GRAHAM, J
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Army Veterinary Corps
Unit Text: 16th Vet. Hosp.
Date of Death: 03/08/1916
Service No: SE/4272
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: F. 143.
Cemetery: CAIRO WAR MEMORIAL CEMETERY
On the Langholm thread Jim Grant has been lookng into the matter and has checked various sources. Here are his findings:
| kinnethmont wrote: | Adam
I rather think they are the same man but it is not possible to be absolutely certain due to differing information from various sources. There could be two men.
CWGC have a Pte SE/4272 J Graham, Army Veterinary Corps died Egypt on 3rd August 1916. I have confirmed this is the date CWGC were given. No details were provided by his NOK.
SNWM have a Pte SE/4278 Joseph Graham, b Langholm died Egypt 30th August 1916.
SDGW have Pte SE/4278 Joseph Graham, b Langholm, e Galashiels, Royal Army Veterinary Corps died Egypt 30th August 1916.
Thus, we have a 2 x J Walker in the same unit, died in the same theatre but on different dates with different numbers.
An MIC for a Joseph D Walker shows he was Pte SE/4272 R.A.V.C. and the card has Died 30/8/1916 on it. He arrived in theatre 3 ( Egypt) on 16th March 1915.
Only one death of a Joseph Walker is recorded at GROS in 1916 and unfortunately the details do not resolve the mystery.
R.A.V.C. Pte SE/4278, age 31 born Scotland died 30th August 1916 in Egypt ( Appendix abcess).
Had the number been 4272 CWGC might have changed their record, but proof positive is required. In the circumstances they would leave them, as is.
I feel sure the GROS number is wrong because that R.A.V.C number was issued to a George A Buswell who served in France.
If you come across any family notification / medal paperwork, etc it could be looked at again |
Last edited by Adam Brown on Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:02 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Adam Brown
Curator
Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 5961
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
Because of the doubt, and becaue there is a GROS entry for a Jospeph Graham dying in Eypt on 30.08.1916 is there a case for this man to be commemorated by the CWGC?
There is enough doubt and no evidence to say they are the same man so should the SE/4278 Joseph Graham be commemorated too until it can be confirmed they are / aren't the same man?
Jim, can you suggest what CWGC might do in this case?
Regards
Adam |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adam Brown
Curator
Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 5961
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
Just a quick update from the Langholm thread. I have combined two posts into one. For the full discussion you can see it here
| Stewartry wrote: | Re Joseph Graham
It may be worth emailing the reference department at the Ewart Library, Dumfries. The Dumfries & Galloway Standard is indexed, so a search for Graham, Joseph will show whether there was a report of his death or a death notice in August/September 1916 - either of these should sort out the date discrepancy...for personal knowledge of the true date.
Cheers,
Stuart |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adam Brown
Curator
Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 5961
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
Stuart
I have e-mailed the Ewart Library as you suggested. They are open on a Saturday.
Regards
Adam |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1451
Location: Aberdeenshire
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 6:28 pm Post subject: Pte Joseph Graham, R.A.V.C. |
|
|
| Quote: | | Because of the doubt, and becaue there is a GROS entry for a Jospeph Graham dying in Eypt on 30.08.1916 is there a case for this man to be commemorated by the CWGC? |
Adam
Your suggestion is slightly mischievous since we already know that the number on GROS ( SE/4278 ) was issued to George Buswell, also RAVC, and he was in France.
It appears the number given to GROS for Joseph Graham, supplied by his unit, was a clerical error since they have given CWGC the correct number, or at least one which ties with an MIC in the name of Joseph D Graham, RAVC who went to the Egypt theatre in 1915.
| Quote: | There is enough doubt and no evidence to say they are the same man so should the SE/4278 Joseph Graham be commemorated too until it can be confirmed they are / aren't the same man?
Jim, can you suggest what CWGC might do in this case? |
As you write, there is doubt but no evidence either way. That remains the problem until " proof positive " evidence turns up, if ever it can.
There is nothing that CWGC can do. Names cannot be added " just in case " and removed at a later date if supporting evidence does not materialise, they do not deal in " if and maybe ".
A Death Certificate, in itself, does not mean the man named can be commemorated, but it does mean the process can be started. In the suggestion you make we have already discovered the number SE/4278 does not relate the the man named, Joseph Graham, but to another man who I believe survived.
There is a common misconception that CWGC approve names for admission to their Roll. This is not the case. Then as now, they record those names approved by the military authorities. They would quickly realise the contradictions we have found in this case and reject it.
CWGC are not charged with researching posible additions, that is down to the likes of us, i'm afraid.
As advised previously, the only option open now involves correspondence with the NOK. If you know of living relatives I would be interested, as that might open another avenue for checking.
If anything more comes up I will add it here as an update.
7th June
A Joseph Graham was born 17 Nov 1884 at Eskdale St., Langholm. A Joseph D Graham is in the same household in 1891 and a farm servant locally in 1901. He may have been given his mother's middle name of Douglas, it is not on his B Cert.
_________________
Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DerekR
Moderator
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 2759
Location: Hawick, Scotland
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Any updates on this?
_________________
Help Save Our Red Squirrels
4 wheels move the body, 2 wheels move the soul! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kenneth Morrison
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 1432
Location: Rockcliffe Dalbeattie
|
| Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 3:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I was in the Ewart Library in Dumfries today when one of the staff was dealing with an equiry about this man. Before I refer them to this discussion could I just check that Jim's reference to Joseph D Walker is a typo?
_________________
Ken |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1451
Location: Aberdeenshire
|
| Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 4:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It is not a typo, according to the " gospel " at Ancestry he was Joseph D. That said, errors abound on there.
It is probably correct. You will find the actual Census record on Scotlandspople for a small fee
_________________
Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kenneth Morrison
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 1432
Location: Rockcliffe Dalbeattie
|
| Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 5:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sorry - I didn't make myself clear. It was the name WALKER I was asking about. The guys name was GRAHAM.
_________________
Ken |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1451
Location: Aberdeenshire
|
| Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 5:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ken
Sorry, Walker was a typo which was repeated. The original detail at Langholm is correct
_________________
Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
