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1920s deaths not on CWGC?

 
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David McNay
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7649
Location: Lanarkshire, Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:51 am    Post subject: 1920s deaths not on CWGC? Reply with quote

Having been doing some transcribing of Dumfries and Galloway memorials, I noticed several men listed who had died in the 1920s. I looked up their death certificates, and while they are not listed by the CWGC, I could not attribute their deaths to war wounds.

Do we have any other names on memorials for deaths in the 1920s? Could we perhaps do some research on these names and if they are not already on the CWGC, see about having them added?

I know that there are members of the Great War Forum running an "In From The Cold" project to add some of the missing men from CWGC, could we perhaps do our own, albeit much smaller project?

Thoughts please, folks.
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Adam Brown
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7369
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David

Part of the problem would be that the date of death would fall outside the period used by CWGC for inclusion in their records. Some of the men we see listed ar dying in 1924 and 1925. Would CWGC add them?

Cheers

Adam
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1675
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:30 pm    Post subject: 1920s deaths not on CWGC? Reply with quote

Quote:
Part of the problem would be that the date of death would fall outside the period used by CWGC for inclusion in their records. Some of the men we see listed ar dying in 1924 and 1925. Would CWGC add them?


CWGC will not add these men as they fall outside the qualifying dates for WW1 ie. 04.08.14 to 31.08.21 inclusive. Service personnel who died between these dates qualify automatically.

Others who died after discharge between these dates, of injury or illness caused by or exacerbated by their service, may also be accepted, but only if it is PROVEN TO THE AUTHORITIES SATISFACTION that the death was attributable to the deceased's war service.

The latter is the difficult one to prove 100%. A death certificate confirming the link to service related causes is normally required.

The qualifying dates for WW2 are 03.09.39 to 31.12.47 inclusive.
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk


Last edited by kinnethmont on Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Keptie



Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 815

PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:19 pm    Post subject: CWGC cut off dates Reply with quote

The CWGC will not accept any death as a result of Wounds received in action in the Great War after their rigid "cut off " date of 31 August 1921 as they say it is laid down in the Royal Charter .

My Namesake Uncle, Lieut P W Anderson,8 Black Watch, 10 Black Watch , & 18 Sqn RFC & RAF was seriously wounded to his stomach and thigh on a daytime bombing action in DH4 on 27 June 1918 France and spent some time at the CCS as he had lost a lot of blood in getting back to his lines and I would expect he would have been moved by canal up to the Base Hospital and over to London ( Eaton Square ) and then hospitals in Swanage . He was discharged from Military Hospitals and sent on an Ambulance Train from Kings Cross back to Arbroath arriving back home by ambulance on 11 November 1919 to dress his wounds daily . He had yet another op in the Arbroath Infirmary and soon after died of his serious wounds .

During the 1990's I contacted the tenant of No 10 Downing Street a Mr John Major and send document copies to him and he passed it onto the head of CWGC Mr Ghee who said that he could not add my Uncle to the index as he died of his wounds after the 31 Aug 1921 . I told him that he had relinquished his Commission but the London Gazette said that he could retain his Rank of Lieutenant but that still did not work .

I wrote back to Mr Gee when I saw his interview in the Sunday Post saying that General Auckinleck had a MOD grave in Casablanca in North Africa and his reply was that .......... Generals never retire !

So a seriously wounded Flying Soldier of the Great War can't get a CWGC headstone but a General who died 40 + years after the cut off date for WW2 gets a MOD headstone instead of a War Grave commission headstone!

After my Uncle's serious wounding in 1918 the pilots of 18 Sqn RAF were having a pre end of the war party on the airfield and a vary flare hit the partying CO in the head and he died of his injuries and he has a CWGC headstone in France
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1675
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:51 pm    Post subject: 1920s deaths not on CWGC? Reply with quote

Keptie

I do sympathise with the position regarding your uncle. As you are aware the cut off date is set out in the Royal Charter and has to be strictly adhered to.
Some fall to one side of the date and are commemorated, some to the other, as here, and are not. It is a difficult situation, but a date had to be set. 31 August 1921 is the date on which the war was officially declared at an end.

There are many cases of men who died well after 1960 of causes which orginated with their war service. Some gassing victims had their lungs damaged for life.
I believe it is true that Generals and other very senior officers never actually retire and remain " on call " to the end. ( Edit - Field Marshals )

The partying CO qualifies as detailed in my earlier post.

Is your uncle commemorated on the Arbroath War Memorial ?
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk


Last edited by kinnethmont on Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Keptie



Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 815

PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:34 am    Post subject: CWGC Reply with quote

Jim

My namesake Uncle, Lieut P W Anderson is listed on the Arbroath war memorial (unveiled by Lord Inchape ) ; on the Dundee University (University College Dundee at that time) War Memorial ; St Marys Scottish Episcopal Church Arbroath War Memorial; St Andrews University O T C Additional Memorial at City Road St Andrews , Fife and the Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh Castle - RAF 1914-1918 roll listing his Service in the Black Watch . He was also listed on the Roll of Honour of the Arbroath High School but that seems to have been "disposed of " when the Education Authority closed the old High School and moved to the New High School in Arbroath in the mid 1980s.
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1675
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:02 pm    Post subject: 1920s deaths not on CWGC? Reply with quote

Keptie

I am glad to learn he is " Not Forgotten "
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk


Last edited by kinnethmont on Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1675
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:37 pm    Post subject: 1920s deaths not on CWGC? Reply with quote

Quote:
I know that there are members of the Great War Forum running an "In From The Cold" project to add some of the missing men from CWGC, could we perhaps do our own, albeit much smaller project?

Thoughts please, folks.


I think it would be hepful to clarify the workings of the " In From the Cold Project " mentioned above in relation to the 1920's deaths queries.

IFCP are not involved in post discharge cases and only deal with those involving " in-service " casualties who are missing from the CWGC Debt of Honour Register. IFCP have an arrangement in place whereby they can fund the purchase of the death certificate for those cases which qualify for consideration by the military authorities.

Anyone who wishes to may become a volunteer. I would suggest this is the better option to duplicating the work currently done, or being done, even if it is " a much smaller project " I am aware that a considerable number in the IFCP pipeline currently are from Scottish units.

IFCP is highly organised and volunteers have to undertake the tasks allotted to them and cannot pick and choose an area they wish to research (ie Scotland). The process involves a very systematic search of archive material and cannot be fragmented.

The tasks of an IFCP volunteer are:-
1) To receive specific batches of pages taken from the GRO Overseas Death Indices usually amounting to about 1000 names at a time. The volunteer is required to use Microsoft Word (or compatible system) for this.

2) To compare every single name against the CWGC Debt of Honour database and to record any not found on the IFCP Report Form provided. Access to a special piece of software will be provided to volunteers to make this task easier.
This can be a tedious task requiring good eyesight and a reasonable knowledge (not expert) of UK regimental names/abbreviations etc and lots of patience. Some of the pages have poor reproduction. Two trial pages are usually sent to new volunteers as a test.

Ideally, the volunteer would have access to the S&N disk containing these indices or a subscription to Find My Past where they can be found online. If neither of these is the case, then paper copies can be supplied to the volunteer.

3) To note any variation in Date of Death or name found in any entry during these searches.

4) To complete the Form as required
5) To do the same for the next batch!


IFCP will continue single-mindedly until its task is completed in about 2012

If anyone wants more info or contact details, please send me a PM.
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk
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DelBoy



Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 4855
Location: The County of Angus

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Field Generals do not ever retire it seems.

Name: WINDSOR, ARTHUR WILLIAM PATRICK ALBERT
Initials: A W P A
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Field Marshal
Regiment/Service: General Staff
Age: 91
Date of Death: 16/01/1942
Awards: K G, K T, K P, G C B, G C S I, G C M G, G C I E, G C V O, G B E, V D, T D
Additional information: 1st Duke of Connaught and Strathearn. Third son of Her Majesty, Queen Victoria.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Cemetery: FROGMORE ROYAL BURIAL GROUND

Derek.
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1675
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a Field General, but a Field Marshal on the General Staff.

As you suggest, they never retire. The same is true for an Admiral of the Fleet and Marshal of the RAF since 6th February 1940.
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk
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Keptie



Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 815

PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:41 pm    Post subject: CWGC Reply with quote

Yes Auchinleck has a MOD headstone for retired Officers as Generals never retire I was told by the commissioner of the CWGC . He even has his grave in Casablanca North Africa !

He died well after the cut off date for WW2 casualties so got an MOD headstone for his grave ...



pat w anderson
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4816
Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It can seem complicated but Generals do retire (except for Field Marshalls).

Ranks up to Colonel retire on a pension.

Brigadier, Major General, Lieut General and General retire on half pay.

Field Marshalls do not retire but remain on full pay for life.

\Paul
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