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sinclair sons --Old Kilpatrick and glasgow

 
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smkay



Joined: 14 Mar 2009
Posts: 2
Location: East Kilbride, Lanarkshire

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:27 pm    Post subject: sinclair sons --Old Kilpatrick and glasgow Reply with quote

My grandmother lost 4 brothers in WW1
Matthew Sinclair HLI died 1914
Henry Sinclair Cameronians died 1916
Colin Sinclair Argyll and Sutherland died 1916
Joseph Sinclair HLI died 1916

I have never found their names on any war memorial in scotland, though their father lived in Glasgow and by 1916 was living in gavinburn street , Old Kilpatrick. Can anyone help?
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Adam Brown
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7312
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moving this to queries and requests. These are the CWGC details of the four men listed above. None of them are listed on the Old Kilpatrick War Memorial

SINCLAIR, MATTHEW
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Highland Light Infantry
Unit Text: 1st Bn.
Date of Death: 19/12/1914
Service No: 11629
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 37 and 38.
Memorial: LE TOURET MEMORIAL

SINCLAIR, H
Rank: Lance Corporal
Regiment/Service: Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)
Unit Text: 2nd Bn.
Age: 27
Date of Death: 30/09/1916
Service No: 10025
Additional information: Son of Matthew Sinclair, of 3, Gavinburn St., Old Kilpatrick, Dumbartonshire.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: I. J. 15.
Cemetery: PHILOSOPHE BRITISH CEMETERY, MAZINGARBE

SINCLAIR, COLIN
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders
Unit Text: 10th Bn.
Date of Death: 12/10/1916
Service No: 1202
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Pier and Face 15 A and 16 C.
Memorial: THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

SINCLAIR, JOSEPH
Rank: Lance Corporal
Regiment/Service: Highland Light Infantry
Unit Text: 1st Bn.
Date of Death: 01/02/1916
Service No: 12126
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 35 and 64.
Memorial: BASRA MEMORIAL

Adam
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Adam Brown
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7312
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the SNWM Matthew is listed as born in Glasgow and Colin and Joseph as born in Greenock. Henry does not have a place of birth listed.

Greenock War Memorial doesn't list names but a Roll of Honour for the town was produced after the war.

A memorial record of men of Greenock who fell in the Great War, 1914-1918

See here:

http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?t=328

One of our forum members has a copy and has offered to do look-ups. It may be worth contacting her. The details are in the thread.

Cheers

Adam
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dhubthaigh
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Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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Location: Blairgowrie, Perthshire

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope the brothers are listed somewhere. It got me thinking - I wonder what percentage of the fallen in Scotland are not recorded on any memorial ?
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:32 am    Post subject: Old Kilpatrick and glasgow Reply with quote

It would be very difficult to put a percentage on it as the numbers will vary a great deal. In rural areas it is less likely to be a problem than in towns and cities. That said, towns were often very well organised and you have the opposite effect. In Aberdeen, for instance, there are many recorded there with very tenuous links to the city.

The reasons why some were left off memorials intentionally are many and varied. This aspect has been discussed elswhere.

Of greater concern to me is the number missing from our National Memorial, which must run to thousands.
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So many organisations such as churches, clubs and work places remembred their dead that I'd be very surprised if anyone who died in the First World War and came from Scotland was not mentioned on at least one memorial or Roll of Honour. As Jim points out sometimes even a quite slim conection was enough to be commemorated. Whether these rolls still exist all these years later is another matter.

Adam
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
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Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the other hand, from the Clydebank Blitz there were 22 bodies never claimed or identified. So there are 22 people where we have date and place of death and connection with the area who are still not commemorated. I can imagine many from the towns and cities with no relatives to report them may well be missing. For example a Scottish orphan who served (other than in a Scottish regiment) - who would put him forward to be added? I don't think that place of birth on service records was used and most of them are missing anyway.

\Paul
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:52 pm    Post subject: Old Kilpatrick and Glasgow Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't think that place of birth on service records was used and most of them are missing anyway.


Paul

The place of birth is not relevant to being named on a particular war memorial. It would depend on the criteria used by the War Memorial Commitee involved. The text they left on the memorial very often informs us how a paricular parish dealt with this.
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4991
Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Jim, You are right, place of birth would not be a criteria for many memorial committees. I was just trying to think of what records could exist after someones death to indicate they should be on SNWM. If they had no relatives and did not serve in a Scottish Regiment, all I could think of was place of birth or place of enlistment.

I do remember reading the minutes of an English memorial committee (I think in a local museum) a good few years ago where they were considering what the criteria was and I think discussed born or baptised or schooled in the parish but (if I recall) they settled on living in the parish at time of enlistment to be be strictly enforced.

\Paul
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:51 pm    Post subject: Old Kilpatrick and Glasgow Reply with quote

Paul

I am conscious there are some who may think this has gone " off topic "

Place of birth might well be relevant for a memorial, depending how it was done, at the outset.

SNWM
There are a number of ways to establish the man ( or woman) qualifies. The problem is getting enough for SNWM, who usually insist on a service record. Most of the time this is not possible due to the activities on the Luftwaffe in 1940. I am working on a case now where no file exists but he has been accepted after 91 years by MOD due to official War Office documents I obtained which confim he died in 1917. We will see what happens.

Some on enlisting ( or the clerk) did not accuarately detail their place of birth. Even if they put Aberdeen, meaning the County of, rather than the city, they are unlikely to have said other than Scotland.

It is fairly easy to establish they are Scots in most cases, as far as SNWM criteria is concerned from a Birth Certificate, etc. As you will know, they are not free and SNWM are not inclined to search for those missing from their Rolls.
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk
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suzebain



Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see there's a Henry Sinclair listed on the Pollokshaws Memorial

http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?t=2755

No regiment listed so unsure if he's your man.

Susan
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smkay



Joined: 14 Mar 2009
Posts: 2
Location: East Kilbride, Lanarkshire

PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:57 am    Post subject: sinclair sons --Old Kilpatrick and glasgow Reply with quote

I have seen a book in the Mitchell library in Glasgow of the war dead of Glasgow , which lists their names Regiment , etc. Would this be equivalent of a war memorial.?
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David McNay
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
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Location: Lanarkshire, Scotland

PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:15 am    Post subject: Re: sinclair sons --Old Kilpatrick and glasgow Reply with quote

smkay wrote:
I have seen a book in the Mitchell library in Glasgow of the war dead of Glasgow , which lists their names Regiment , etc. Would this be equivalent of a war memorial.?


The Roll of Honour for the City of Glasgow - I have a copy and will check the names for you.

It is known for not being 100% accurate - there are men whose address is listed as a village some 15 miles outside of the city, and I know of at least one individual listed on this roll (and also on the SNWM) who survived the war.

However, it's the best list we have at the moment for Glasgow.

We are currently in the process of digitizing the roll for ease of use. You can read more about this project here:

The Scottish Military Research Group - City of Glasgow Roll of Honour Project
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