The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project

spoons

I was browsing the WW1 Service Records on Ancestry and came across William Carmichael, KOSB (Regimental Number 6421), enlisted in 1898 and died in 1900 at Bloemfontein.

A poster on GWF has confirmed that this file includes some pre-war dead.

Don't know if anyone is interested in this man?

Hes in Grave No 918.
Church of England Old Cemetery
Bloemfontein
918 L/Cpl W.Carmichael
K.O.S.B.
18/6/1900.

He was from Moniaive but I am not aware of him being listed on any memorial.

\Paul

David McNay · Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:22 pm Post subject:

I'm very interested in this. I had no idea that there were records available for Boer War deaths. Everything I've read says that the records of men who died on service pre-WW1 were destroyed.

I'd love to see his service record.

spoons · Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:02 pm Post subject:

on its way by email

\Paul

spoons · Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:21 pm Post subject:

There seems to be quite a few such records. I randomly looked up William Thomson Addison from Montrose who enlisted in the 7th Dragoons in 1882 - no details of service or death though.

Also Ebenezer Allen from Leven who enlisted in 1859 and there is an incredible amount of service history for him if you can make out the handwriting. The earliest Scottish record is for an enlistment in 1858.

Don't all rush at once!

\Paul

chrispaton · Joined: 21 Feb 2009 Posts: 11

Just a quick note to say that the majority of these records just now are for surnames A-N, though the rest will be added in due course. Only about a third of WW1 service records survive, and in two collections - the 'burnt' collection and the 'unburnt' collection (held under WO 373 and WO 374 at TNA).

It's also worth knowing that the National Archives's Documents Online website at Kew has recently reduced its WW1 medal index cards in cost to just £2. Ancestry has of course redigitised them in full colour, and has both sides photographed, wheras TNA has them in black and white, and only the fronts. Ancestry did the work in conjunction with the Western Front Association - I think the WFA are also planning to make them available on their site, though I stand open to correction on that.

The records do sometimes contain pre-WW1 records of service for those who signed up again in 1914, having already left the army. I had the great pleasure of discovering from one record that my great uncle was hospitalised with gonhorrea in the late 1800s whilst in the Mediterranean...!

Chris

spoons · Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:21 pm Post subject:

Hi Chris, thanks for the clarification however there must be a little more to it than that because the first record I found was for a man who died in the Boer war (so he couldn't have re-enlisted in WW1) and another record I found was originally enlisted in 1859 so I think it extremely unlikely he re-enlisted in 1914 as he would have to have been in his 70s at least.

\Paul

chrispaton · Joined: 21 Feb 2009 Posts: 11

Hi Paul,

I have two service records that fall in the category you've mentioned. One was for my wife's great uncle, who died in France in Nov 1914. He had been in the army as part of the Connaught Rangers. He enlisted in about 1901, and the service record is continuous up to his death in 1914. The other example is the already quoted great uncle on my side, who was in the Cameron Highlanders. His service record on Ancestry shows that he enlisted in 1891, and left in 1912. He did sign up again in 1914, but Ancestry's service record for him only covers the first period. Fortunately I've been able to gain more about his WW1 service from other sources.

I work as a genealogist, and last week found another entry for a client, concerning another gent in the army in WW1, who initially signed up as a 14 year old with the 72nd Highlanders, and later the Borders regiment, and who fought in the Anglo-Afghan War, and other campaigns, retiring in 1901. He later re-enlisted in WW1 as a reservist, and the papers also cover this, though he saw no action.

In Simon Fowler's 'Tracing Your First World War Ancestors', he has the following on the two sets (p.48 ) -

WO 363
"They are for men who were killed in action, died of wounds or disease without being discharged to service, or were demobilised at the end of the war".

WO 364
"They are generally for men who were either regular soldiers before the war and who were discharged to pension at he end of their service, or men who later claimed disablility pensions."

Chris

chrispaton · Joined: 21 Feb 2009 Posts: 11

Sorry, I re-edited the above, and it has bizarrely come up as an absolute mess, as a quote of myself...!

Also, just to add - it is WO 363 and WO 364. I labelled them wrong in an earlier post. oops!

Chris

chrispaton · Joined: 21 Feb 2009 Posts: 11

Looking at Simon's description of WO 364, that might imply what you have found, because it does not say discharged to service at the end of the First World War, just at the end of their service, which could imply pre-war. I know Simon, so I'll drop him a note and ask him to clarify the point.

Chris

chrispaton · Joined: 21 Feb 2009 Posts: 11

Just had word back - they do indeed contain some earlier records. Simon puts it down the fact when the records were originally held at a huge tank factory near Heathrow, some MOD clerks got confused with their filing! Smile

Chris