The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project

robbie · Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Posts: 31 Location: West Norway

I know this question will likely make me look silly, but:
The 1st world War was 1914 - 1918, which is reflected in the inscriptions on some memorials. But a lot of memorials state 1914 - 1919.

Is this to do with the fact that the peace treaty wasn't signed until 1919, or am I missing a point?
Very Happy

_________________
Robbie @ Shetlopedia.com

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

Robbie

The reason for 1914-1919, is as you suggest, due to the war being officially ended by The Treaty of Versailles of 28 June 1919. The event of 11th November 1918 was only an armistice, or cessation of hostilities, and there was a fear the conflict might start up again.
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk

robbie · Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Posts: 31 Location: West Norway

Thanks Jim,
Must admit I'm a bit thick on the international points of the wars, as I've just been interested in local facts.
Lord forbid anybody ever declares war on me, as I'd likely not understand it.. Confused

_________________
Robbie @ Shetlopedia.com

Roxy · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:17 pm Post subject:

Further to the above, the British was also involved in fighting in Russia in 1919; perhaps it was easier for the relatives to consider this as a continuation of the War?

Roxy
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Remembering my ggf, Pte Thomas Roberts, 10 SR, killed 25 Sep 15 at Loos.
Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan.

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

Roxy · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:11 pm Post subject:

Are you saying that Servicemen killed in Russia are not commemorated by CWGC? Nor on Great War Memorials?

I thought that they were.

Roxy
_________________
Remembering my ggf, Pte Thomas Roberts, 10 SR, killed 25 Sep 15 at Loos.
Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan.

dhubthaigh · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:32 pm Post subject:

Peter Richardson is listed on the Blairgowrie & Rattray War Memorial:

Surname RICHARDSON
Firstname Peter Welsh
Service number 129843
Date of death 10/08/1919
Decoration
Place of birth Blairgowrie
Other 46th Bn. formerly S/28151 Seaforth Highlanders.
SNWM roll SCOTTISH CASUALTIES EXTRACTED FROM ENGLISH REGIMENTS
Rank Pte
Theatre of death Russia

BLAIRGOWRIE ADVERTISER: 23.08.19

Peace has been signed and rejoiced over, but the sorrows of War still come to Scottish homes. This week news was received of the death of a promising Blairgowrie boy who was serving with the British Expeditionary Force in North Russia. On Thursday Mrs Richardson, William Street, had official intimation that her youngest son, Peter, had been killed on the 10th inst. during the fighting against the Bolsheviks.
The deceased soldier, who was only 19, was a private in the Royal Fusiliers, to which he was lately transferred from the Seaforth Highlanders. He joined the Army some little time before the armistice and he was sent to Russia in the Spring of this year. Pte. Richardson, who was an apprentice grocer with Messrs. J & A Reid before enlisting, was a bright and most likeable boy and his untimely death in faraway Russia is a great blow to his many friends.
The sympathy of the community has gone out to Mrs Richardson in this, her second, bereavement owing to the War. Another son, James, who was in the Seaforths, was killed in 1917 after highly distinguishing himself by winning the Military Medal and Bar.
Five of Mrs Richardson’s sons have served with the Forces during the War.

KevinStoke · . Joined: 09 Jan 2007 Posts: 175

Soldier, sailors, etc are listed on the CWGC site because they died within the CWGC date in 1921. The reason some may be missed off civic war memorials is because of the date some memorials were built therefore they died after the council etc had reached their cut off date for names

K

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

Adam Brown · Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:42 pm Post subject:

spoons · Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:57 pm Post subject:

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

Mark

Apolgies for using the name Paul in my response. I was unable to change it on realising my mistake.

Adam

SNWM does not stop at 11th Nov 1918. To qualify for inclusion the casualty must have been:

"A member of the Armed Forces of the Crown or of the Merchant Navy who was either a Scotsman (i.e. born in Scotland or who had a Scottish born father or Mother) or served in a Scottish Regiment and was killed or died (except as a result of suicide) as a result of a wound, injury or disease sustained (a) in a theatre of operations for which a medal has been or is awarded; or (b) whilst on duty in aid of the Civil Power."

This is an updated version of the original text.

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

Adam

None of the others were in the 46th Royal Fusiliers, most were in the 45th. Both RF battalions were formed in April 1919 and disbanded in December that year.

The details of the others are below. They are recorded on the Archangel Memorial with the exceptions of Cree and Martin. They are buried at Yakovlevskoe but have Special Memorial headstones around the wall of Archangel Allied Cemetery.

10th August 1918 was the date of the battle of Troitsa (a town on the River Dvina south east of Archangel), fought against the Bolsheviks. The allies (UK, USA, France, Poland, Italy & White Russia) won the battle and soon after the non-Russian allied troops evacuated Archangel.

Paul

Your understanding of additions to the CWGC register is correct. As far as I know the Michelin guides were printed guidebooks for traveling round the old battlefields and had no linkage to the names appearing on the SNWM.

Name: ADAM, GERALD WALLACE
Initials: G W
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Second Lieutenant
Regiment/Service: Leicestershire Regiment
Secondary Regiment: Yorkshire Regiment
Secondary Unit Text: attd. 13th Bn.
Age: 20
Date of Death: 10/08/1919
Awards: Mentioned in Despatches
Additional information: Son of Mr. and Mrs. John Wallace Adam, of Heaton Moor, Stockport.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Memorial: ARCHANGEL MEMORIAL

Name: BELL
Initials: J
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Royal Fusiliers
Unit Text: 45th Bn.
Age: 39
Date of Death: 10/08/1919
Service No: 129796
Additional information: Son of Mary Simpson, of 59, St. Leonard's Hill, Edinburgh, and the late James Simpson.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Memorial: ARCHANGEL MEMORIAL

Name: CREE, WILLIAM
Initials: W
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Royal Fusiliers
Unit Text: 45th Bn.
Date of Death: 10/08/1919
Service No: 130197
Additional information: (buried Yakovlevskoe Chyd. Extn.).
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Sp. Mem. B26.
Cemetery: ARCHANGEL ALLIED CEMETERY

Name: LOGAN, ROBERT GIBSON
Initials: R G
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Royal Fusiliers
Unit Text: 45th Bn.
Age: 25
Date of Death: 10/08/1919
Service No: 129594
Additional information: Son of John and Grace Logan, of 19, Prince's Square, Strathbungo, Glasgow.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Memorial: ARCHANGEL MEMORIAL

Name: MARTIN, CHARLES
Initials: C
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Royal Fusiliers
Unit Text: 45th Bn.
Date of Death: 10/08/1919
Service No: 129617
Additional information: (buried Yakovlevskoe Chyd. Extn.).
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Sp. Mem. B96.
Cemetery: ARCHANGEL ALLIED CEMETERY

Name: McLACHLAN, THOMAS
Initials: T
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Royal Fusiliers
Unit Text: 45th Bn.
Date of Death: 10/08/1919
Service No: 130143
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Memorial: ARCHANGEL MEMORIAL
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk

spoons · Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:19 pm Post subject:

"As far as I know the Michelin guides were printed guidebooks for traveling round the old battlefields and had no linkage to the names appearing on the SNWM. "

Thanks, I understand that - I was just illustrating that battlefield tourism was well established in 1919 so it was entirely possible that servicemen were there other than on duty. Not in this case obviously.

\Paul