The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project

spoons

There are various comments concerning the memorials in this church on the individual memorial threads and also the general thread 'memorials in danger' but I thought it worth making a new post with a summary of history plus recent and future actions.

The church closed for worship in January 2004 and was advertised for sale in mid 2008.

The church contains the following memorials (note there are 3 sets of colours)
Greyfriars Church Parishioners Great War,
Kings Own Scottish Borderers Boer War,
Kings Own Scottish Borderers Egypt campaign,
Capt Hannay individual memorial,
Sgt Kirkpatrick individual memorial,
Laid-up colours of 21st Royal Scots Fusiliers (1878),
Laid-up colours of Scottish Borderers Militia (1888),
Laid-up colours of 5th Battalion Kings Own Scottish Borderers (1955)

it also formerly held a memorial to Capt J J Dykes which is now safe in private hands.

The last keyholder (Mr Cannon) told me that he had tried to get the memorials resited to somewhere suitable, the local museum, the nearby church where the congregation moved and the KOSB museum but without success, mainly because he could not get the church to take an interest. I was very concerned that these memorials should not end up in a skip or on eBay and ideally should be kept together locally and on public display.

In July 2008 I wrote to UKNIWM, the War Memorials Trust and the Scottish Redundant Churches Trust explaining my position as a concerned bystander. All replied with some background info but no easy solution.

On 8 July I wrote to Her Majesty as Col in Chief of the Royal Regiment of Scotland to make her aware of my concerns.

I also wrote to the Church of Scotland but received no reply.

1st October 2008 BBC reported that the church had been sold to John Crosbie an ordained minister who said he wanted to maintain it as a place of christian worship. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7645956.stm

On 2nd October I wrote to the new owner (Mr Crosbie) but received no reply.

I received a letter from Ministry of Defence (Veterans Policy Unit) dated 12 November following my letter to the Queen. It is 'sorry we cannot help' with the memorials but the laid up colours is something different. They continue to be owned by the Crown and are the responsibility of the church - they can only be moved in accordance with Queen's regulations (copy of the relevant section was included with the letter) and they certainly cannot be sold as fixtures with the church as the man at Church of Scotland legal department seemed to think. Copies of the letter were sent to RSF and KOSB museums.

I received telephone calls from Col Hogg at KOSB RHQ and Col Steel at RSF RHQ and they will liaise and contact Church of Scotland to make sure that the colours at least find a good home and they have said they will keep me informed of progress.

The church is grade A listed which 'should' ensure that the other memorials stay in place because they would require listed buildings consent if they were to be moved.

Any way we can be notified if listed buildings consent is applied for to relocate memorials? Is this done nationally or regionally?

If anyone would like more details of any of this correspondance, let me know and I will post or forward it.

MOD also sent me a booklet 'War Memorials in England and Wales, Guidance for Custodians' which is very detailed and interesting. As it is copyright, I phoned the Ministry of Justice to ask their permission to copy the document in entirity on our forum - if I get permission I will put it up, in the meantime, PM me if you would like a copy. Does anyone know if such a document exists for Scotland and how we would get hold of a copy?

When the dust settles on this, I will contact Church of Scotland to find out where the 'missing' colours have gone from St Giles Cathedral because I was told that they don't know! Given the legal position that they should have applied for permission to move them under Queen's Regulations, someone must have a record of where they are or at least be motivated to find out.

It's been a long haul and we're not there yet but hopefully this will all be of benefit in further cases.

\Paul

Adam Brown · Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject:

It sounds like it's been a slog for you Paul. At least the RHQs are finally taking some notice and if nothing else the Colours will find a new home. Hopefully this should also mean the CoS will review its holdings of Colours throughout the country and I'll bet they have quite a few - think of all the King's Colours handed out to the Service battalions in 1919.

I'll be very interested to hear what the Church says about the St Giles Colours when you pass on the news that they don't own them.

Hopefully you'll get permission from the MoD for the guidelines. As far as I am aware there is no Scottish equivalent.

Adam

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

Paul

Listed Building Consent is applied for as an individual case and should be advertised and subject to public scrutinty through the local authorities planning process. In the case of A and B listed properties the Council cannot themselves authorise the work.
I am aware that Listed Building Consent is required to make alterations to war memorials although a recent B Listed case seems to have somehow been approved " allegedy" without this process having taken place.

See details from Historic Scotland which confirm the process and that unauthorised work is illegal.
http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/index/heritage/historicandlistedbuildings/altering-a-listed-building.htm

dhubthaigh · Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject:

Paul,

I applaud your very hard work regarding this situation - utterly commendable and I hope it ALL works out well. I was going to add that I cannot believe some of the responses from various places/people (or non responses for that matter) ......but unfortunately I can.

Mark

spoons · Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: Listed Buiding Consent

Adam Brown · Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:09 am Post subject:

There's a few churches in Edinburgh which have re-opened under a different denomination, the practice isn't new. St Patrick's RC Church in the Cowgate here started as an Episcopal Church until the 1850's.

I'm not sure how many were CoS though? I'm in the process of trying to work out church mergers in Edinburgh in the last eighty years and hopefully we'll see what happened to all the buildings

Cheers

Adam