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Roxy
Moderator - Morayshire


Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 510
Location: Elgin, Moray

PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Councillor Sandy Park is also on-side!

Roxy
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Remembering my ggf, Pte Thomas Roberts, 10 SR, killed 25 Sep 15 at Loos.
Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan.
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:33 pm    Post subject: Appending names / War Memorials Act Reply with quote

Roxy

I have some knowledge of this particular subject and believe the advice from the War Memorials Trust to be incorrect. The War Memorials (Local Authorities’ Powers) Act, 1923, as ammended in 1948 ( when the Act extended to include Scotland), gives powers to Local Authorities in Scotland which does not include adding names. It allows for protection, correction of errors and omissons in the inscription as well as making structural alterations to allow it's use in respect of future wars.

Section One from 1948 reads : A local authority may incur reasonable expenditure in the maintenance, repair and protection of any war memorial whether within or outside their area whether vested in them or not.

The text of the Note for section One of the Act from 1948 states:
The matters on which expenditure may be incurred under the said section one shall include the alteration of any memorial to which that section applies so as to make it serve as a memorial in connection with any war, subsequent to that in connection with which it was erected, and the correction of any error or omission in the inscription on any such memorial.

The Act gives them Powers should they wish to avail themselves of them, they are not legally enforceable.


You need to discover who owns the memorial ( particularly the ground it stands on) since the legal authority ( Scots Law) to alter it rests soley with the legal owner, regardless of how it was raised post WW1.
Unfortunatly, this memorial is a Listed Building making Listed Building Consent a requirement of any change as well as Planning Permission. Being B Listed disqualifies the Council alone from giving Planning Permision without consulting Historic Scotland / Scottish Ministers.

The fact it is Listed may, as it happens, be helpful to you.
When it was Listed in 1981 the Local Authority were legally required to serve notice of it's Listing on the legal owner, making costly Title Deed Searches to discover their identity, if required. They are also required to keep a Register of Listed Buildings in their area which will contain details of the the owner, if the Searches found one. It might also be that the memorial is " vested " to the Council or have no identified legal owner.

The ground may well still be legally part of a local Estate. The land may have been gifted to raise the memorial, with the memorial then being handed to the care of the Parish Council when it was completed in 1922 and the War Memorial Commitee disbanded. If no legal paperwork was done, as was often the case, the memorial would be still owned by the Estate or their succesors. It was unveiled by Brodie of Brodie which might signfy a link to Brodie Estate.

I sympathise with your desire to append the name of Flt Lt Squires but this may prove difficult.

Was he a native of Nairn?
If his was a case in Aberdeenshire he would have to have been born, or lived the majority of his life, in the parish concerned.

If you want specific details on this subject send me a PM.
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk
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Roxy
Moderator - Morayshire


Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 510
Location: Elgin, Moray

PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that - PM sent!

As an aside, Councillor Graham Marsden is also on-side and is putting Al on the agenda for the next ward business meeting.

Roxy
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Remembering my ggf, Pte Thomas Roberts, 10 SR, killed 25 Sep 15 at Loos.
Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan.
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roxy

I should also have pointed out that the Policy for adding names of many Local Authorities in Scotland use the criteria for inclusion of names on the Scottish National War Memorial Roll in addition to their own local policy in the matter.

The SNWM criteria states that to be included he / she must have been :

"A member of the Armed Forces of the Crown or of the Merchant Navy who was either a Scotsman (i.e. born in Scotland or who had a Scottish born father or Mother) or served in a Scottish Regiment and was killed or died (except as a result of suicide) as a result of a wound, injury or disease sustained (a) in a theatre of operations for which a medal has been or is awarded; or (b) whilst on duty in aid of the Civil Power."

I am not quite sure of the status of British service personel in Afghanistan.
Can you advise whether a medal has been / is being issued in respect of " operations in Afghanistan " ?

If not, unlike Suez, NI, Gulf, Iraq, etc, this would be classd as a death outside a qualifying period ie. in peactime and so would not qualify.

My recollection is that the aircraft was lost due to a fault rather than enemy action.
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk


Last edited by kinnethmont on Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4991
Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Jas, first time I have seen the criteria for inclusion on SNWM in print.

Found this on a govt website:

"With immediate effect the Operation Service Medal – VERITAS is to be known as the
“Operational Service Medal – Afghanistan”. It is to cover all operations in Afghanistan and
in direct support of operations in Afghanistan, both past and future, from 11 September 2001
to a date to be determined."

So Flt Lt Squires meets that part of the criteria but he is not on SNWM. Does anyone know if he was born in Scotland or had a Scots born Father or Mother?

\Paul
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Adam Brown
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7312
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

West Lothian District Council added two men who died in training and are not commemorated on the SNWM database to Blackburn memorail so as Jas states many Councils but not all follow that policy.

Nairn falls within Highland Council's area. Tomatin's memorial has an officer killed in Waziristan in 1937 listed. He's not on the SNWM rolls but he's listed on a Highland Council memorial. (It looks like his name was added at the same time as a Malaya name and a Korea name). This may help if the subject of non-commemoration on the SNWN roll is an issue with Highland Council.

Hopefully it wont be an issue. The local councillors are behind commemorating Flt Lt Squires who was a resident of the town at the time of his death and his family are still resident there. That should be reason enough to have his name added.

Adam
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul

From your info it would appear that he died in a theatre where a medal is being awarded.

I later found details of the Operational Service Medal for Afghanistan. It consisits of the medal with clasps for operations. It seems the rules to qualify for it are complex.
Since 2002 UK forces have been in Afghanistan conducting Operation Herrick with, it appears, 30 days continuous service required to earn the medal.

Adam

The Tomatin additon, I assume, was a man who lived most of his life, and was probably born at Tomatin. You point out that he was an officer which probably assisted his cause. His is not a war death.

Each memorial in an area is in different circumstances. Those at Nairn are not yet clear as far as ownership is concerned. We will see what Roxy uncovers.

Regardless of what happened elsewhere in the past the currrent policy of the Local Authority ( Highland Region ) may have to be considered if they have an " interest " in it.

It may well turn out to be privately owned.
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk


Last edited by kinnethmont on Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:41 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Adam Brown
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7312
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ll try not to take this discussion too much off-topic which is Nairn War Memorial.

kinnethmont wrote:
The Tomatin additon, I assume, was a man who lived most of his life, and was probably born at Tomatin


He was a Lt Col in the Indian Army so I think we have to assume he lived most of his life in India. He probably had family in Tomatin at the time of his death though, the same as Al Squires.

kinnethmont wrote:
His is not a war death
No more of a war than Aden or Northern Ireland, both of which are commemorated on Nairn’s war memorial. In fact a clasp was issued to the Indian General Service Medal for the Campaigns in Waziristan in 1936-37

kinnethmont wrote:
Each memorial in an area is in different circumstances. Those at Nairn are not yet clear as far as ownership is concerned. We will see what Roxy uncovers.

Regardless of what happened elsewhere in the past the currrent policy of the Local Authority ( Highland Region ) may have to be considered if they have an " interest " in it.

It may well turn out to be privately owned.


In recent years Nairn has added five Post-1945 names including one for 1991. At this time the memorial was probably in the care of the then local authority - Highland Region. If there was a problem of private and public ownership I’d hope it was cleared up in 1991. It should hopefully be relatively easy to establish who was responsible for adding the Gulf War name. If it turns out that Highland Council are now be responsible for it then I’d be surprised if they didn’t follow the guidelines used by Highland Region up until 1997 when it became Highland Council.

We should have a look at several memorials in the Highland Council area which had names added under Highland Region’s time to try to gauge what their policy was (probably still is).

Nairn

SNWM lists the place of birth of Pte Lang (QOHLDRS 1991) as Edinburgh. Not born in Nairn

Clyne

The Gulf War 1991

BRUCE , Donald , Sergeant , Royal Army Pay Corps

Sgt Kinnear died in Saudi Arabia as a result of a traffic accident, not enemy action. He was not born in Brora, did not grow up in Brora and is not buried in Brora but is listed on the memorial because his family were resident in Brora at the time of his death

Alness and Evanton

These two memorials in Highland Council area commemorate the same man.

Northern Ireland 1979
MACMILLAN , A. , Private , 1st Bn Queen's Own Highlanders

He can't have been born or spent most of his life in both places


From what’s been said before there could be objections because

1. The Ownership of the memorial is not known – 5 names have been added since 1945. Ownership must have been identified as recently as 1991. the owners, private or council have not objected to these names being added.

2. Al Squires was not born or spent a lot of his life in Nairn – Neither was Sgt Kinnear in Brora but he is commemorated there. Pte Lang wasn’t born in Nairn but is commemorated there. Pte MacMillan can’t have been born and spent most of his life in both Alness and Evanton. Lt Col Grant could not have spent most of his life in Tomatin either.

3. Historic Scotland / Scottish Government object because it is a listed structure – Unlikely since the other five names have been added fairly recently

4. His death does not meet the criteria for inclusion in the SNWM rolls of honour. Paul has established it does.

Three out of Nairn’s four councillors already support this. (See them all here by the way http://www.highland.gov.uk/yourcouncil/yourcouncillors/councillorscontactdetails/ward19/) Would the other Councillor reject the proposal? Could one man veto it? If he does have objections we could probably point to Sgt Kinnear’s inclusion on another Highland Council memorial after the Gulf War. His case is quite similar to Fl Lt Squires.

Hopefully all will go well come the next meeting of the ward’s councillors.

Regards

Adam
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam

In the case of Tomatin we are both assuming.

Quote:
His is not a war death
By this I meant his is not war death as far as SNWM is concerned. His death is also outside the scope of CWGC's Charter.

Quote:
He can't have been born or spent most of his life in both places
and your other references, including 2., to this subject. My reference was to the current policy in Aberdeenshire, not Highland ie.
Quote:
If his was a case in Aberdeenshire he would have to have been born, or lived the majority of his life, in the parish concerned.
As for Highland Council having the same Policies as Highland Council in 1991, possibly not. I am aware that those of Aberdeenshire differ from the former Grampian Regional Council. The issue of war memorials was raised in the Westminster Parliament in January 1999 and subsequently Henry McLeish, at the Scottish Office, wrote to all Scottish Councils regarding their responsibilities for those owned by or vested in them. In consequence Aberdeenshire adopted a Policy where none existed previously, later that year. As yet, we do not know the position at Highland Council.


Quote:
Ownership must have been identified as recently as 1991.
We don't know what happened. Maybe the Council own it or have those you mention vested in them.

Quote:
His death does not meet the criteria for inclusion in the SNWM rolls of honour. Paul has established it does.
Paul established only that he was in a theatre where a medal was awarded. It is now clear Flt Lt Squires does not qualify. Only one of the Nimrod casualties of 2nd Sept 2006 is listed by SNWM. He was from Dundee. His entry is below:

Surname BEATTIE
Firstname Stephen
Service number H8141472
Date of death 02/09/2006
Decoration
Place of birth Angus. R.A.F
Other
SNWM roll THE ROYAL AIR FORCE
Rank Flt Sgt
Theatre of death Afghanistan.

Sgt Kinnear and Pte Lang from 1991 are both included on SNWM's Roll.


Quote:
Would the other Councillor reject the proposal? Could one man veto it?
The matter would not be decided by them but by a Planning Commitee or possibly the Infrastructure Services Commitee ( possibly both) since a B Listed building is involved. I am not sure of the precise working at Highland Council. In any case the ulitimate decision is not one for it alone.

Another possibility - It may be that a Planning Application receives objections from members of the Public. I doubt it, but you never know.

It will be interesting to see what Roxy turns up regarding the history of the memorial's ownership. That needs to be established at the outset together with the Council's position, if in their care.

For the avoidance of doubt, I support the case for adding Flt Lt Squires at Nairn, if he is entitled to be included.
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk
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Roxy
Moderator - Morayshire


Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 510
Location: Elgin, Moray

PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can anyone tell me if Sister Isobel Mackintosh is on SNWM roll of honour?
(I can't find her)

She is listed on the Nairn War Memorial.

Roxy
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Remembering my ggf, Pte Thomas Roberts, 10 SR, killed 25 Sep 15 at Loos.
Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan.
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kinnethmont



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Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:02 pm    Post subject: Sister Mackintosh RRC Reply with quote

Roxy

Sister Mackintosh is not named on SNWM, neither is she commemorated by CWGC. The text, as transcribed, shows her to be a holder of the Royal Red Cross medal (RRC).
Members of the Red Cross were eligible for CWGC commemoration, but ONLY IF they died on duty and of a war cause. The RC was one of the Recognised Civilian Units that could qualify under these extra conditions.
This would also account for her being absent from SNWM.

Do you know how and when she died?
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk
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Roxy
Moderator - Morayshire


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Location: Elgin, Moray

PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Jim Stawbridge from GWF, she died of acute influenza/pneumonia on 10 July 1918.

As previously mentioned, she is the first name on the Nairn War Memorial.

Roxy
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Remembering my ggf, Pte Thomas Roberts, 10 SR, killed 25 Sep 15 at Loos.
Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan.
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are the details of the Post-1945 listed on Nairn War Memorial

MURDOCH, James
Rank: Private
Unit: 1st Bn Seaforth Highlanders
Service number: 19188585
Date of death: 17 January 1949
Age: 19
Theatre of death: Malaya
Place of birth: Nairn
Date of Birth: 02 March 1929
Cemetery: Ashes scattered in Kranji Military Cemetery, Singapore
Included on Armed Forces Memorial: Yes
Included on Roll of Honour: Yes
SNWM roll: SEAFORTH HIGHLANDERS

BUTLER, James Davidson
Rank: Private
Service Number: 22406535
Unit: 1st Bn King’s Own Scottish Borderers
Date of Death: 12 October 1951
Theatre of death: Korea
Age: 20
Place of Birth: Nairn
Date of Birth: 20 November 1930
Cemetery: Grave 23.1.1554 UN Memorial Cemetery, Pusan, Korea
Included on Armed Forces Memorial: Yes
Included on Roll of Honour: Yes
SNWM roll: THE KING'S OWN SCOTTISH BORDERERS

McINTOSH, John Alexander
Rank: Private
Service Number: 23980460
Unit: 1st Bn The Parachute Regiment.
Date of death: 18 June 1967
Theatre of death Aden
Age: 18
Place of birth: Nairn
Date of Birth: 16 February 1949
Cemetery: Grave 6.B.9, Silent Valley Cemetery, Aden
Included on Armed Forces Memorial: Yes
Included on Roll of Honour: Yes
SNWM roll: SCOTSMEN IN VARIOUS CORPS AND UNITS

LANG, David
Rank: Lance Corporal
Service Number: 24163304
Unit: 1st Bn Queen’s Own Highlanders
Date of Death: 24 August 1979
Theatre of death: Northern Ireland
Age: 25
Place of birth: Nairn
Date of Birth: 15 November 1953
Cemetery: Grave 1979 Ext.K.24 Nairn Cemetery, Grantown Road
Included on Armed Forces Memorial: Yes
Included on Roll of Honour: Yes
SNWM roll: QUEEN'S OWN HIGHLANDERS

LANG, John William
Rank: Private
Service Number: 24815901
Unit: 1st Bn Queen’s Own Highlanders attached 3rd Bn Royal Regiment of Fusiliers
Date of Death: 26 February 1991
Theatre of death: Gulf
Killed by Friendly fire from a U.S.A.F. A-10 Warthog when it attacked two Warrior APCs of the 4th Armoured Brigade
Age: 19
Place of Birth: Edinburgh
Date of Birth: 27 April 1971
Cemetery: Grave Q.27 Nairn Cemetery, Grantown Road
Included on Armed Forces Memorial: Yes
Included on Roll of Honour: Yes
SNWM roll: QUEEN'S OWN HIGHLANDERS
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 5:43 pm    Post subject: Sister Mackintosh ARRC Reply with quote

Interestingly she is listed as Isabel M Mackintosh age 31. She died at Lewisham in London. There was a Military Hospital there where she may have been working. She could well have been nursing overseas at some point, but her death is clearly not war related and thus she is not listed by SNWM or CWGC. He name should, however, be on the Nurse's Memorial in York.
It is quite likely she was a victim of the Flu pandemic that was raging at the time.

The inclusion of her name at Nairn would have been a matter for the War Memorial Committee. Generally civilians were not included for WW1 but as a Red Cross nurse ( who had probably been in France) she may have been, quite rightly, viewed locally as having assisted the war effort. Clearly she is at the start of the list, being a case of " ladies first "

In 1891 Isabel M Mackintosh, age 5, born Greenock, is residing in the home of her step-grandfather, Robert Anderson, Farmer at Lochdhu, Nairn. His wife Mary, formerly Mackintosh ms Stewart was Isabel's grandmother.

Update
Above born Greenock is correct. She was Isabel Marion Mackintosh and apparently lived on Kincorth Estate and Glen Lyon Lodge, Nairn. She is interred at Nairn Cemetery. A biography of her appeared in the Press and Journal on 3rd Sept 1998
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk


Last edited by kinnethmont on Sun May 04, 2008 8:21 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Roxy
Moderator - Morayshire


Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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Location: Elgin, Moray

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim Strawbridge also had 'Isabel' from his research - it is clearly Isobel on the memorial; however people have been known to make mistakes!

Roxy
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Remembering my ggf, Pte Thomas Roberts, 10 SR, killed 25 Sep 15 at Loos.
Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan.
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