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Able Seaman Jack Kleinberg & the SS Raceland
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jos has kindly provided information that shows that the mothers of both James Burns and John Keogh / Keough were resident in Glasgow during the war, so they may turn out to be candidates for addition to the SNWM database as well as the CWGC one.

Hugh McKenzie's home address was Cleveland, Ohio but the US Coast Guard informed the British Embassy in Washington in April 1942 that he was a British citizen. Given his name it will be worth further investigation to find out if he was a Scot.

Adam
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Theletterwriter



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam

Does Jos know the mothers names of James Burns & John Keogh. Having difficulty with Keogh in Scotlands People but 21 James J. Burns were born in Glasgow alone between 1903-1904.

Douglas
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Douglas

Thank you for looking. Jos has provided me with some more information over the weekend which I haven't had a chance to post yet.

Keogh is actually Keough.

John G Keogh

was born in Shettleston on 28th March 1902. His age is given as 39 but the ship was sunk on his 40th birthday.
His NoK address was given as 703 Shettleston Road, Glasgow. His mother was living there. She died in 1949. One of the survivors wrote to her from a PoW camp and said her son had died the day after the sinking.
David has also found a merchant navy index card for John Keough which gives his rating as Fireman in 1937.

James Joseph Burns

No date of birth yet, but his age is given as 38 so it should be around 1904.
His NoK address was given as 117 Florence Street, Glasgow. His mother was living there. The same survivor in the PoW camp said her son had died in a lifeboat on the 2nd of April.

Jack Kleinberg

He is the one listed on the SNWM and is commemorated in Edinburgh. SNWM says he was born in Glasgow, and his age is given as 23 (25 on the war memorial) so that should mean a birth between 1917 and 1919.
Jos has found a letter from his fiancé, an Etta Bernstein of Glasgow, looking for information from the ship owners.

Hugh McKenzie

He is more difficult, and not just because of the name. He was listed as 48 years old, so d.o.b. around the mid 1890's. His NoK address is given as 1913 75th St Euclid Avenue, Cleveland, Ohio. Jos reckons he may have taken US citizenship even though the US Coastguard sent his details to the British Embassy.
David has found a merchant navy index card for a Hugh Brown Mckenzie with a birth of 2nd November 1896 in Glasgow.

That's pretty much it for now so any help in finding out more about these sailors would be gratefully recieved.

Adam
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Theletterwriter



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam

Not much on the individual men. I am not sure if this is of any use but from Scotlands People : -

a). John Keough, as you indicated, was born on 28 March 1902 at Carntyne Street, Shettleston, His parents were John and Ellen Keough m.s. McKeown. The family are still staying in Shettleston at the 1911 Census with parents John and Mary Ellen and five children Mary (14), Agnes (13), James (11), John (9) and Quintin (2). There is nothing in the minor records about John Keough’s death. His mother, now named Helen, did die at 703 Shettleston Road, Glasgow on 11 July 1949.

b). There are only two James Joseph Burns recorded as being born around 1904. One in 1899 at Camlachie Glasgow and the other in 1906 in Paisley, If it was the latter, his mother died in 1915. It may be possible that his birth certificate is recorded as James Burns leaving 64 in the whole of Scotland and 27 within Glasgow. Only one James Joseph Burns is recorded as marrying between 1919 – 1942 and that was in 1942 in Aberdeen to Evelyn Aitken but both appeared to have died in Aboyne about 15-20 years ago. There is nothing in the minor records about James Joseph Burns’ death.

c). As my previous post, there were no male Kleinbergs born in Glasgow between 1900-1927 but eight were born in Edinburgh. I still think the best bet is Jacob Kleinberg born in 1918. The fact that Jack Kleinberg is commemorated in Edinburgh would strongly suggest he came from Edinburgh although his fiancée came from Glasgow. There is nothing in the minor records about Jack Kleinberg’s death.

d). As you indicated, Hugh Brown McKenzie was born in Glasgow (Anderston) on 2 November 1896 to James and Rachel McKenzie m.s. Closs. The family were still in Anderston at the time of the 1911 Census and Hugh’s siblings were James (29), John (27), Rachel (25), George (23), William (21) Dominick? and Alexander (both 19) and Mary (16). As with the others, nothing in the minor records re his death.

I seemed to have hit the proverbial brick wall.

Douglas
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks for looking Douglas. Is it because the minor records only record Scottish deaths on British Merchant Navy vessels? With the Raceland being Panamanian registered and American owned there seems to be a gap in the recording of their deaths. There is a website listing US Merchant Marine deaths which lists some of the Raceland's crew, including foreign nationals, James Burns amongst them, but not all of them.

http://www.usmm.org/killed/b.html

This is going to be quite a challenge. I can't help think that the reason Roy Currie has been commemorated by CWGC is because his death was recorded by Norwegian authorities, not because anyone in UK, Canada or the US recorded it.

Kind regards

Adam
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:00 am    Post subject: Able Seaman Jack Kleinberg & the SS Raceland Reply with quote

Quote:
I can't help think that the reason Roy Currie has been commemorated by CWGC is because his death was recorded by Norwegian authorities, not because anyone in UK, Canada or the US recorded it



Currie's death will have been reported by the Canadian Merchant Service. Clearly they had a better grasp of things than the British MM, in part explaining why so many MM men are absent from the CWGC Register as war dead or civilians.
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In Flanders fields.

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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the Canadian authorities were so efficient with Roy Currie please explain why the other three Canadian seamen lost at sea after the sinking of the Raceland are not commemorated?

Lozon, John ,Trimmer, Aged 25
Sheridan, Bernard G., Messman, Aged 20
Wong, Jack Dunn. Radio Operator, Aged 22

Thanks

Adam
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:29 pm    Post subject: Able Seaman Jack Kleinberg & the SS Raceland Reply with quote

Quote:
If the Canadian authorities were so efficient with Roy Currie please explain why the other three Canadian seamen lost at sea after the sinking of the Raceland are not commemorated?


I have no idea, perhaps they were not Canadians or not members of the Canadian MM. Your research may yet throw up the answer.
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
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In Flanders fields.

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Theletterwriter



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam

I have always thought the minor records to record Scottish merchant marine deaths under marine returns but I am sure these records are not complete.

Douglas
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:23 pm    Post subject: Able Seaman Jack Kleinberg & the SS Raceland Reply with quote

Quote:
I have always thought the minor records to record Scottish merchant marine deaths under marine returns but I am sure these records are not complete.


They include deaths on British-registered merchant vessels at sea in any part of the world, where it appears that one of the child's parents or the deceased person was usually resident in Scotland.
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The following are Scottish merchant seamen who died on US flaged or US owned merchant marine vessels (but flagged in Panama for example) in WW2 listed by [url]usmm.org@comcast.net[/url] I've not listed Joseph Burns again.

Three have been commemorated by the CWGC. It will be interesting to see if any are in the minor records

Last name, first name, ship, date of dead, position, Nok address, age,

Ellinson Alexander, Bateau [former Italian Euro] 03/29/42 Chief Steward Glascow Scotland 36 CWGC - yes
Miller John, Bateau [former Italian Euro] 03/29/42 Able Seaman Edinburg Scotland 18
Sutherland Frank, Bateau [former Italian Euro] 03/29/42 Messman Aberdeen Scotland [Sydenham United Kingdom] 18 CWGC - yes
Harvey David, Friar Rock 01/13/42 Deck Engineer Scotland - Hazelton BC Canada 44 CWGC - yes
Mullin Thomas, Nathaniel Green 02/24/43 F/W Rothelay Aute Scotland Unknown
Hunter C. W., Nimba 09/13/42 Workaway Scotland Unknown
Sutherland Joseph, Rochester 01/30/42 3rd Engineer Glasgow Scotland Unknown
Mackin Edward M., Tambour 09/26/42 Donkeyman Scotland 32
McRae John, Winkler 02/23/43 Able Seaman Scotland Unknown
Smith Hugh J., Winkler 02/23/43 O.S. Scotland Unknown
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Theletterwriter



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam

None of the above as far as I could see.

Douglas
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for looking Douglas. I think they will be recorded in a log book in the National Archives BT 387. Allied Crew Lists from WW2.

This was held by the Registrar of Seamen and Shipping in Cardiff but is now in London.

Thanks

Adam
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A thread on the WW2 Talk forum has yielded some potential useful sources of information about these men: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/56005-ss-racelands-commonwealth-crew-not-commemorated-bar-one/

PIN 15/2816 - British seamen serving on United States ships: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C207532

MT 47/236 - United States and Panamanian ships to North Russia: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3753182

BT382 - Registry of Shipping and Seamen: Fifth Register of Merchant Seaman's Service (CRS 10 forms): http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C15680

And if the Raceland was chartered by HM Government on its trip to Norway:

BT387 - Registry of Shipping and Seamen: War of 1939-1945; Log Books and Crew Agreements of Allied Foreign Ships Requisitioned or Chartered by HMG: Queensborugh Park - River New Park http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11105964

All are held by the National Archives in London but unfortunately all would need to be looked through in person in Kew.

Adam
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Sugarman has been working on getting Jewish non-comms recognised by the CWGC. I provided him with what we know and he was able to identify more information about Jack Kleinberg at the National Archives.

Mr Sugarman heard from GWGC this morning that Mess Man Jack Kleinberg qualifies for commemoration as a Commonwealth war casualty.

This excellent news makes me hopeful that the other Scottish crewmen of the Raceland will one day be commemorated too.

Thanks

Adam
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