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Merseman
Joined: 07 Aug 2013 Posts: 339 Location: Duns, Berwickshire
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Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:39 pm Post subject: Civilians "Killed as a Result of Enemy Action" dur |
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http://www.cwgc.org/about-us/history-of-cwgc/second-world-war.aspx
A year after the Commission's programme was completed in 1938 war once again engulfed mainland Europe, forcing the Commission to evacuate its staff and leave the cemeteries. Ware soon realised that this war was very different from the last one. It was global and the increased use of air power meant that casualties would no longer be restricted to military personnel. Extending its remit at the request of Winston Churchill, the Commission created a roll of honour that commemorated 67,000 civilians who died as a result of enemy action during the Second World War. |
Does anyone know more about why this decision was taken, and what the criteria was for a civilian to be included?
Also, was any similar register compiled at the time - or subsequently - for WWI, by CWGC or others? Zeppelin raids, shelling of Scarborough, etc. |
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DelBoy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007 Posts: 4858 Location: The County of Angus
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Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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I think the reasoning for including civilians in the WW2 RoH book is given in the article, that civilian casualties would be found more often away from any defined battlefield.
As regards WW1 civilians, there's no RoH as far as I know, only local memorials.
You can add all munitions workers who died in factory explosions, for the war effort, but not by the enemy so don't count.
Derek. |
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Merseman
Joined: 07 Aug 2013 Posts: 339 Location: Duns, Berwickshire
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Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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I was wondering if it had any practical purpose, in tandem with a desire to commemorate civilians who died - I believe the government compensated you if your house got bombed for example, so was there some need for a register of those killed by enemy action in a similar vein?
DelBoy wrote: | You can add all munitions workers who died in factory explosions, for the war effort, but not by the enemy so don't count.
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True. I suppose civilians in PoW camps are similarly excluded.
But civilians lost in U-boat attacks are included like air raids, I assume.
It was Eyemouth's memorial, which lists fishermen, that had me thinking. |
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DelBoy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007 Posts: 4858 Location: The County of Angus
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Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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Merseman wrote: | But civilians lost in U-boat attacks are included like air raids, I assume.
It was Eyemouth's memorial, which lists fishermen, that had me thinking. |
Bit of a grey area. Some deaths will have bee "our" sea mines that killed our own. Perhaps not reported that way at the time though.
Derek. |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire
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Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Also, was any similar register compiled at the time - or subsequently - for WWI, by CWGC or others? Zeppelin raids, shelling of Scarborough, etc |
There was no recognistion of general civilians during WW1, in the main that war was fought on foreign soil. WW2 was different and that is why the Civilian Roll came about as you suggest early on. The CWGC Charter was changed to allow them to create and maintain the Civilian Roll, they were not resposible for the names / details appearing upon it.
There are special condiditions under which " civilians " qualify for comemoration on the CWGC Roll, in effect they had to have died due to direct enemy action.
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True. I suppose civilians in PoW camps are similarly excluded. |
They qualify for the Civilian Roll if they were British or Commonwealth nationals at their death.
Example:
HAINING, JANE
Rank: Civilian
Date of Death: Between 15/07/1944 and 31/07/1944
Age: 47
Regiment/Service: Civilian War Dead
Reporting Authority GERMANY
Additional Information: Died at Auschwitz Concentration Camp.
As for war graves the the same is true for civilian members of what are known as the recognised civilian organisations in both wars eg. Mercantile Marine, St John’s Ambulance Brigade, Home Guard ( WW2), Trinity House Lighthouse and Pilotage Services (WW2) , etc. There are many of them with differeing criteria applying but the death has to be in direct consequence of enemy action.
As far as fishermen and sea mines are concerned they would qualify as civilians due to enemy action or due to increased war risks, or if acting under naval authority they would qualify as war dead.
If the fisherman fell into the hold and died he would not qualify as this is a normal occupational risk . A sailor in the Royal Navy would qualify as a war death no matter how he died.
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You can add all munitions workers who died in factory explosions, for the war effort, but not by the enemy so don't count. |
UK Munitions workers will only be commemorated if enemy action was involved. A factory explosion would be a normal ocupational risk _________________ Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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David McNay Administrator
Joined: 14 Dec 2006 Posts: 11425 Location: Lanarkshire, Scotland
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Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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interestingly, I believe that Jane Haining was only added to the Civilian Roll of Honour fairly recently. |
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mhomac
Joined: 15 May 2010 Posts: 779 Location: South Lanarkshire
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Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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I believe your information is correct, David. |
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DelBoy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007 Posts: 4858 Location: The County of Angus
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Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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Probably many civilian deaths abroad never made it on to the roll of honour.
Also not on CWGC. A first generation Scot of Italian extraction on my local memorial was executed by the gestapo when transporting ammunition for the Italian partisons.
Derek. |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire
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Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:00 am Post subject: |
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Jane Haining was added due to the work of IFCP in Nov 2010.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Haining
Quote: | Also not on CWGC. A first generation Scot of Italian extraction on my local memorial was executed by the gestapo when transporting ammunition for the Italian partisons. |
If I recall correctly, when you raised it with me it was thought / found he had taken Italian nationality on returning there. As an Italian national he cannot qualify for CWGC. _________________ Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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mhomac
Joined: 15 May 2010 Posts: 779 Location: South Lanarkshire
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Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:57 am Post subject: |
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The life story of Jane Haining is well known to us as she is a relative on my grandmothers side of the family.
Jane's bible and other items are on display, along with her "Righteous Among the Nations" medal and Citation are on display at the St. Mungo Museum of Religious Life and Art in Glasgow. |
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DelBoy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007 Posts: 4858 Location: The County of Angus
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Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:04 am Post subject: |
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kinnethmont wrote: | If I recall correctly, when you raised it with me it was thought / found he had taken Italian nationality on returning there. As an Italian national he cannot qualify for CWGC. |
Hmm, i recall you saying his nationality would have to be proven, that being born in Scotland to Italian parents wouldn't guarentee UK citizen status. His mother had taken unwell and the family went to italy before the outbreak of the war with the father returning shortly before hostilities.
Derek. |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire
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Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:04 am Post subject: |
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Derek
It is a fair while ago, but the story sounded familiar.
It would have to be proven he was a British national at his death. Normally that was reported back, but in this case not, otherwise CWGC would have been made aware of him. _________________ Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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