 |
The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project
(Registered Scottish Charity No. SC043826). Please visit our homepage at www.scottishmilitaryresearch.co.uk
|
Important Notice:
We regret to inform you that our free phpBB forum hosting service will be discontinued by the end of June 30, 2024.
If you wish to migrate to our paid hosting service, please contact billing@hostonnet.com.
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
mons14
Joined: 08 May 2013
Posts: 20
Location: Canada
|
 Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:23 am Post subject: Murray of 'The Manse, Millseat, Turriff Aberdeen Scotland |
 |
|
I hope I've placed this request in the correct section...
I'm researching the following Aberdeen man and wondered what if any memorial he might be commemorated on?
MURRAY, W
Sergeant
71196
Date of Death:
09/08/1918
Canadian Machine Gun Corps
Awards:
D C M
Additional Information:
Son of William and Christina Murray, of the Manse, Millseat, Turriff, Scotland.
Thank you for any advice.
Regards,
David |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
anne park
Our first ever 2000 poster
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 21200
Location: Aberdeen
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:55 am Post subject: William Murray info |
|
|
William Murray Sjt 71196 DCM 2nd Canadian Machine Gun Corps b Turriff 18/09/1892 e Winnipeg Age 26 Killed in Action F & F 09/08/18 Son of William & Christina Murray, The Manse, Millseat, Turriff. Joined 27th Canadian trans. to 2nd MGC. The War Book of Turriff & 12 Miles Round: Page 193: Occ: Watchmaker. Caix British Cemetery Fr 0652 Plot I Row C Grave 4 Crudie Portsoy & Upperbrae Memorials.
_________________
Researching WWI info from Aberdeenshire, Banffshire, Kincardineshire & Morayshire. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
spoons
Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4991
Location: St John's Town of Dalry
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have heard of two books although I have never seen either.
"Sons of the Manse Muster Roll" (1915) and "Muster Roll of the Manse" (1919).
Might be worth checking out.
\Paul |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kenneth Morrison
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 7779
Location: Rockcliffe Dalbeattie
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mons14
Joined: 08 May 2013
Posts: 20
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:06 am Post subject: Re: William Murray info |
|
|
| anne park wrote: | | William Murray Sjt 71196 DCM 2nd Canadian Machine Gun Corps b Turriff 18/09/1892 e Winnipeg Age 26 Killed in Action F & F 09/08/18 Son of William & Christina Murray, The Manse, Millseat, Turriff. Joined 27th Canadian trans. to 2nd MGC. The War Book of Turriff & 12 Miles Round: Page 193: Occ: Watchmaker. Caix British Cemetery Fr 0652 Plot I Row C Grave 4 Crudie Portsoy & Upperbrae Memorials. |
Thank you for this Anne, and all the other countless pages of information you've provided on this forum.
May I ask, as someone familiar with Aberdeen - what local newspaper should I look at in an effort to find an article about William Murray?
Kind regards,
David |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mons14
Joined: 08 May 2013
Posts: 20
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| spoons wrote: | I have heard of two books although I have never seen either.
"Sons of the Manse Muster Roll" (1915) and "Muster Roll of the Manse" (1919).
Might be worth checking out.
\Paul |
Thank you so much for this new lead!!
I've already done a few internet searches and have established that a copy of the 'Sons of the Manse Muster Roll' is held at the Toronto Reference Library, relatively close to where I live. I'm looking very forward to having a look at this book!
Kind regards,
David |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mons14
Joined: 08 May 2013
Posts: 20
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks ever so much as always for your help Ken - yes I have seen the above link, in fact much of the information was submitted by me - BUT thank you all the same for kindly taking the time to both find and send me the link.
With all the research I've done I'm still not completely sure I understand what 'The Manse' is, and how it relates to William Murray. I've come to understand that it refers to a Reverend's House; which I suppose makes sense as Williams father is shown to have been a Reverend.
But does this mean that many others lived in this same 'house'...was this a school or dwelling? Forgive what is likely a stupid question, my apologies in advance.
Kind regards,
David |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mons14
Joined: 08 May 2013
Posts: 20
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
71196 Sjt. William Murray DCM
27th (City of Winnipeg) Bn. Attached 2nd Bn. Canadian Machine Gun Corps.
Born at Aberdeenshire Scotland September 18, 1892. The son of the Reverend William Murray of ‘The Manse’ Millseat Turriff Aberdeen Scotland.
Served over three years with the 5th Gordon Highlanders and 79the Cameron Highlanders of Canada. He moved to Canada at some point before the Great War where he is recorded at working as a watch maker, probably in the city of Winnipeg Manitoba.
Murray was an original member of the 27th City of Winnipeg battalion, enlisting there on October 25, 1914. The 27th was raised as part of the 2nd Canadian Contingent to join the 1st Canadian Division already in England.
On attestation Murray is recorded as being 5 feet and 4 ½ inches tall with grey eyes, brown hair with a sallow complexion.
Embarked for England on the SS Carpathian on May 17, 1915. Murray was transferred from ‘A’ Company to the machine gun section of the 27th Battalion on August 1, while stationed at Otterpool. Embarked for France and to the front on September 17, 1915.
He was later transferred to the 6th Coy. Canadian Machine Gun Corps on its formation in the field on December 31, 1915.
Awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medals for gallantry in action:
‘For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. While advancing in an attack he captured a machine gun single-handed, and under heavy shell fire got it into action against parties of the enemy and against enemy aeorplanes with good effect. By his cheerfulness and devotion to his wounded gunners he set a splendid example.' LG March 28, 1918.’
Sjt. Murray was killed in action on August 9, 1918 during desperate fighting near Rosieres France:
‘…whilst with a comrade assisting another comrade who had been wounded in a general attack near Rosieres he and his two companions were instantly killed by an enemy shell which bust nearby.’
He was buried in Caix New British Cemetery France.
Last edited by mons14 on Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:19 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
anne park
Our first ever 2000 poster
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 21200
Location: Aberdeen
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:05 am Post subject: Local papers |
|
|
Aberdeen Daily Journal daily morning paper
Evening Express
People's Journal weekly
If you go onto The British Newspaper Archive site.
With William Murray it will not be easy.
_________________
Researching WWI info from Aberdeenshire, Banffshire, Kincardineshire & Morayshire. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Merseman
Joined: 07 Aug 2013
Posts: 339
Location: Duns, Berwickshire
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mons14 wrote: |
With all the research I've done I'm still not completely sure I understand what 'The Manse' is, and how it relates to William Murray. I've come to understand that it refers to a Reverend's House; which I suppose makes sense as Williams father is shown to have been a Reverend.
But does this mean that many others lived in this same 'house'...was this a school or dwelling? Forgive what is likely a stupid question, my apologies in advance.
Kind regards,
David |
"Manse" is simply the home of the minister (Reverend). In the Established Church... the Church of Scotland... a minister normally received a stipend (salary) paid for out of teinds (tithes: a levy on the land), plus rent or use of a glebe (field), plus he would live in the manse. Cost of maintaining the manse, glebe, parish church and providing the sacraments (bread + wine for communion) fell upon the heritors - landowners - who often split costs 50-50 between themselves and the tenant farmers. That is a simplification and by the 1910s the money offerings of the congregation were the major funder of costs alongwith endowments, but you get the idea.
Other presbyterian churches also gave their minister a manses... in these cases maintained out of the money offerings of the congregation that also paid his stipend. On a map "UF Manse" means United Free Church manse, for example.
In the manse you would find the minister and his family and maybe some servants, though they would be less common by the Edwardian era.
In Scotland, the phrase "son of the manse" is an informal way of saying a son of a minister. For example Gordon Brown - the recent Prime Minister - is sometimes called a "son of the manse" as his father was a minister. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Merseman
Joined: 07 Aug 2013
Posts: 339
Location: Duns, Berwickshire
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Here is the modern appearance of the Old Manse, Millseat, Turriff:
http://www.aspc.co.uk/cgi-bin/public/SEARCH/ID?ID=253803
While this pictures the church (now a house):
http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/2613143
Strangely enough it turns-out that Rev William Murray and his manse was not of the Church of Scotland nor infact of any presbyterian denomination as I went to check "Fasti Ecclesia Scoticanae" and couldn't find him. Then, checking the Ordnance Gazeteer of Scotland... "Millseat: hamlet in King Edward parish, Aberdeenshire, 6 miles NE of Turriff, has a Congregational Chapel built in 1831 and containing 210 sittings".
I've 2 statistical books on the Congregational Union (formed in 1896 when the CU and Evangelical Union merged). Both list William Murray at Millseat from 1890 to 1930. He was born in 1865 and Millseat was his only charge. He must have retired in 1930 as he died in 1938 in Colinton, Edinburgh.
It was a small denomination. In 1885 the CU + EU had 176 congregations and in 1933 it had 160, but meanwhile the majority presbyterian churches totalled around 3300 collectively.
Millseat Congregational Union church opened in 1830 and closed in 1972.
You would know for sure by checking the census returns for 1891 1901 or 1911 but given the CU was a small denomination, it was a rural area, and the manse is not very sizeable from the looks of the picture, I'd imagine it was perhaps just the Murray family living there, no servants.
Kenny |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mons14
Joined: 08 May 2013
Posts: 20
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Merseman,
Thanks ever so much for that very helpful and detailed response - it really does help very much to clear things up and educate this Canuck 
I was especially excited to see Murray's house as it appears today...that was a real treat, THANK YOU!
Regards,
David
Last edited by mons14 on Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mons14
Joined: 08 May 2013
Posts: 20
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:12 pm Post subject: Re: Local papers |
|
|
| anne park wrote: | Aberdeen Daily Journal daily morning paper
Evening Express
People's Journal weekly
If you go onto The British Newspaper Archive site.
With William Murray it will not be easy. |
Thanks Anne, and I would agree wont be an easy task. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Merseman
Joined: 07 Aug 2013
Posts: 339
Location: Duns, Berwickshire
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mons14 wrote: | Merseman,
Thanks ever so much for that very helpful and detailed response - it really does help very much to clear things up and educate this Canuck
I was especially excited to see Murray's house as it appears today...that was a real treat, THANK YOU!
Regards,
David |
Not at all, delighted to be of help. My books on Congregationalism tend to gather dust on the shelf... between the rather more frequently referred to volumes on Baptists and Methodists!... so it was a good excuse to dig 'em out.
In "The Scottish Congregational Ministry 1794-1993" by the Rev William D McNaughton, some more details about Rev William Murray are given.
He was born in 1865 (no place or date) and got married (no year or date) in Laurencekirk Congregational Church, which is in Kincardineshire, being the first county south of Aberdeenshire - he studied at the Theological Hall of the Congregational Churches in Scotland from 1883-1888 and was then ordained into Millseat on 8th May 1890. He left this post in April 1930, and died in Colinton in Edinburgh on 13th October 1938. It also lists dates and pagenumbers of contributions he made in 'The Scottish Congregationalist' magazine and 'The Yearbook of the Congregational Union of Scotland', all in the 1880s and 1930s.
Kenny |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
anne park
Our first ever 2000 poster
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 21200
Location: Aberdeen
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:56 pm Post subject: Rev Wm Murray |
|
|
Went use Fasti then looked on the index for Aberdeen Journal & saw a bit that did mention Congretational Manse so it's AJ 10 April 1917 Page 4.
_________________
Researching WWI info from Aberdeenshire, Banffshire, Kincardineshire & Morayshire. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
