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WW1 Victoria Cross Paving Stones Announced for Centenary
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DelBoy



Joined: 12 Jul 2007
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Location: The County of Angus

PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:34 am    Post subject: WW1 Victoria Cross Paving Stones Announced for Centenary Reply with quote

The piece says the paving stones are to be placed in the place of birth of the recipient. I think there may be some disagreement about what town "should" have the commemoration for some men as so many places try to lay claim to V.C. awardees.
For example, none of the three V.C. men celebrated in stone in Kirriemuir were born there.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23563616

1914 men to be commemorated next year:

James Anson Otho Brooke, born Aberdeen

Walter Lorrain Brodie, born Edinburgh
William Arthur McCrae Bruce, born Edinburgh
William Henry Johnston, Born Leith, Edinburgh
George Wilson, Edinburgh
Henry Peel Ritchie, born Edinburgh

Charles Alfred Jarvis, born Fraserburgh

Henry May, born Glasgow
Harry Sherwood Ranken, born Glasgow

Ross Tollerton, born Hurlford, Ayrshire

James MacKenzie, born New Abbey, Dumfries


Last edited by DelBoy on Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must be misunderstanding something. You have James MacKenzie as being next year but the news item says it will be in the anniversary of the year the medal was awarded. James medal was awarded in the London Gazette in 1915 albeit for an action in 1914.

I agree there is going to be some 'discussion' about where the stone should go, for example James was born in New Abbey but he lived in Troqueer (Maxwelltown). He is listed on the Maxwelltown and Troqueer church memorials along with the Laurieknowe primary school in Maxwelltown. Not listed on the New Abbey memorial.

Also Lt Col Clark-Kennedy's family home was Carsphairn where the family still live today - he even unveiled their war memorial but he was born at Dunskey near Portpatrick.

\Paul
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Kenneth Morrison



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you suggest Derek, the devil is going to be in the details.

"The specially-commissioned stones will be given to councils in the areas where the VC recipients were born."

So in the case of James MacKenzie that will be Dumfries and Galloway Council - but where will they place it? In New Abbey where he was born?
In Maxwelltown where he was brought up and educated?

"Mr Pickles said: "It is our duty to remember the British and Commonwealth troops who lost their lives fighting in the Great War....."

Does this mean those born in the UK but serving in Imperial forces will be included?
and where do Indian Army officers fit?
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DelBoy



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spoons wrote:
I must be misunderstanding something. You have James MacKenzie as being next year but the news item says it will be in the anniversary of the year the medal was awarded. James medal was awarded in the London Gazette in 1915 albeit for an action in 1914.
\Paul


Surely a technicality?

I'd have thought it would be the centerary year of the event that the award was given for? Otherwise those awarded for actions in 1918 but not published til 1919 wont be included, as it is only for the centenary years 2014 through to 2018. I wouldn't imagine that will be the case.

Yes the whole thing will be a can of worms.

Cheers,
Derek.
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yes the whole thing will be a can of worms.


I agree, but he can only have been born once, in one place. That is the only simple way to deal with it, otherwise it become as nonsense and devalues the award.
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Last edited by kinnethmont on Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kenneth Morrison



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if this man will be included?

William Arthur McCrae Bruce VC (15 June 1890 – 19 December 1914) Born in Edinburgh on 15 June 1890, William Bruce was educated in Jersey, Channel Islands at Victoria College, Jersey. From here, he moved to Royal Military Academy Sandhurst to complete his officer's training before entering combat during the Great War. Serving with the 59th Scinde Rifles of the Indian Army, he was posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross, following his death in combat during the Battle of Givenchy.
(from Wikipedia)
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anne park
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:50 am    Post subject: Brigadier General Frederick William Lumsden VC, CB, DSO + 3 Reply with quote

Frederick William Lumsden
Born 14 December 1872
Faizabad, India
Died 4 June 1918 (aged 45)
Blairvill, Arras, France
Allegiance United Kingdom
Service/branch Royal Marines
Years of service 1890 – 1918
Rank Brigadier General
Unit Royal Marine Artillery, General Staff
Commands held 14th Infantry Brigade
No. 1 Howitzer Battery, Royal Marine Artillery
Royal Marine Artillery Howitzer Brigade
Battles/wars First World War
Awards Victoria Cross
Companion of the Order of the Bath
Distinguished Service Order & Three Bars
Mentioned in Despatches (4)
Croix de guerre (Belgium)

Brigadier General Frederick William Lumsden VC, CB, DSO & three bars (14 December 1872 – 4 June 1918) was a British officer in Royal Marine Artillery and later the General Staff, during the First World War. During his service he was decorated four times for valourous service and saw action in several major campaigns before he was killed just months before the war's end in June 1918 with the rank of Brigadier-General. Amongst his decorations was the Victoria Cross, the most prestigious award available to British or Commonwealth troops.

He has Aberdeen connections so does he get remembered.
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Kenneth Morrison



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Born in India - so I'd guess not.
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:20 pm    Post subject: James Anson Otho Brooke, VC Reply with quote

Quote:

James Anson Otho Brooke, born Aberdeen


I missed this earlier, but no doubt Aberdeen will lodge a claim.

He was born at Newhills when Bucksburn was a small hamlet miles from Aberdeen. It may be within the City of Aberdeen now, but not when he lived there. The family have well known links to the Gordons in both World Wars.
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Kenneth Morrison



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The following link is to the UK Government press release. Within it there are links to more detailed information including a series of spreadsheets - one for each country - naming the VC winners, their birth towns and the local council. I think all the Dumfries & Galloway men are there although James Mackenzie is shown as Kirkcudbridgeshire and William Clark-Kennedy is shown as born in Castle Douglas. He was born in 1879 in Dunskey, Portpatrick, Wigtownshire.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/one-year-to-go-to-first-world-war-centenary
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the link Ken. I was surprised to see Robert McBeath VC down as being born in Fraserburgh, I thought he was Kinlochbervie born and bred.

Thanks

Adam
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spoons



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have written to my MSP (Alex Fergusson) about some of the points raised and he has replied saying he has written to the Scottish Office and will get back to me. I can post my mail to him and his reply here if anyone is interested?

\Paul
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul

Please share the correspondence here, I think it will be a good addition to the thread.

Thanks

Adam
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spoons



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mailed Alex Fergusson on 7th Aug:-

Dear Alex

You might have seen an article on this subject http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23563616

Firstly I note that Eric Pickles has made a statement but I am not entirely sure who is organising this or the precise details. As I am significantly involved with both war memorials and war graves, several questions have come my way which I feel obliged to answer if/when I can. In my rather poor understanding of the relationship between Westminster and Holyrood, I think this would be a devolved issue?

The real contention will be about where exactly these are to be placed. Is it to be at the discretion of the local council? The place of birth (as per the news article)? or the 'home town'? (and who would decide that). You may remember a few heated arguments about the gold post boxes for last year's olympics and of course we had the recipients alive to ask where they think it should be, i.e. what they considered to be their home town. Of course none of the WW1 VC recipients are alive so we risk having unseemly arguments between communities who might wish to receive the honour of having the paving stones in their area.

I have attached a list of the five WW1 VC winners from Dumfries and Galloway - this is complete as far as I am aware. A quick look at the names comparing their place of birth with what I believe is their 'home town' should indicate the problem. Better for the appropriate authorities to address this now rather than have some disappointed communities later on in my view.

Regards


he replied on 10 Aug:-

Dear Paul,

Thank you for this – you raise a number of very relevant questions, and I have relayed them to the UK Government’s Scottish Office for a response.

I’ll let you know as soon as I hear back.

Yours as ever,

Alex.
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Merseman



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting discussion.


Kenneth Morrison wrote:
The following link is to the UK Government press release. Within it there are links to more detailed information including a series of spreadsheets - one for each country - naming the VC winners, their birth towns and the local council.

On seeing this I opened the file to look for the 2 Berwickshire VC winners, or at least the 2 I know of, being the well-known Piper Laidlaw...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Laidlaw
... and George Henderson...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Stuart_Henderson

They have Piper Laidlaw down as Berwick-upon-Tweed in England, and do not seem to have George Henderson at all. I wonder if the confusion over Laidlaw stems from This England's "Register of the Victoria Cross" book... in it his place of birth is given as "Little Swinton - nr Berwick-upon-Tweed".

In reality Little Swinton is in Swinton parish, some way into Berwickshire.

George Henderson was born East Gordon in Gordon parish, Berwickshire.

Neither Laidlaw's nor Henderson's awards date from 1914, so it's not quite so pressing in terms of having them avoid errors - but I suppose it further highlights the need for diligence from interested onlookers.

Fellow Borderer John Daykins is given as Hawick and not Cavers/Eckford.


Last edited by Merseman on Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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