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WW1 Victoria Cross Paving Stones Announced for Centenary
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Kenneth Morrison



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The link I posted above came from an enquiry I made to the Central Enquiry Unit of the Scottish Government.
The reply also included the following:
Yes the Scottish Councils will deal directly with the UK Government.
I think this explains why Alex Fergusson has refered Paul's question to the Scottish Office.
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Kenneth Morrison



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merseman wrote:
Interesting discussion.


Kenneth Morrison wrote:
The following link is to the UK Government press release. Within it there are links to more detailed information including a series of spreadsheets - one for each country - naming the VC winners, their birth towns and the local council.

On seeing this I opened the file to look for the 2 Berwickshire VC winners, or at least the 2 I know of, being the well-known Piper Laidlaw...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Laidlaw
... and George Henderson...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Stuart_Henderson

They have Piper Laidlaw down as Berwick-upon-Tweed in England, and do not seem to have George Henderson at all. I wonder if the confusion over Laidlaw stems from This England's "Register of the Victoria Cross" book... in it his place of birth is given as "Little Swinton - nr Berwick-upon-Tweed".

In reality Little Swinton is in Swinton parish, some way into Berwickshire.

George Henderson was born East Gordon in Gordon parish, Berwickshire.

Neither Laidlaw's nor Henderson's awards date from 1914, so it's not quite so pressing in terms of having them avoid errors - but I suppose it further highlights the need for diligence from interested onlookers.

Fellow Borderer John Daykins is given as Hawick and not Cavers/Eckford.


I so agree. I got really frustrated reading various sources about William Clark-Kennedy's birth place and date. Dunskey is quoted as either "in Scotland" or Kirkcudbrightshire. Dunskey House was/is in Portpatrick, Wigtownshire, Scotland. The Birth Register is the only reliable source.
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

The Birth Register is the only reliable source.


Ken, as an Official Record you are absolutly correct.
Have we advised them that the detail for Capt. Brooke V.C. is incorrect.

I note that Geo. McIntosh V.C., 6th G.H. is correct which will be nice for Portessie and that only Robert Combe V.C. of the C.E.F. was born in Aberdeen.
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David McNay
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
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Location: Lanarkshire, Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They have Carluke listed as being in North Lanarkshire.
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
They have Carluke listed as being in North Lanarkshire


Adam

Even then, surely it will still end up in Carluke if the recipient was born there??
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
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Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kinnethmont wrote:
Quote:
They have Carluke listed as being in North Lanarkshire


Adam

Even then, surely it will still end up in Carluke if the recipient was born there??

Not if they give it to the council responsible for the 'place of birth' which is I believe the current plan. i.e. if they give it to North Lanarkshire to place where they see fit, it would probably end up somewhere in North Lanarkshire? Will need to see the detail of the implementation.

\Paul
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul

If they gave it to North Lanarkshire in error because his POB was in Carluke and Carluke was not in their area they would surely ensure it ended up in the correct location.
The local Carluke papers are probably reporting it now
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spoons



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to think so, but local politics can be a cut-throat business and I wouldn't like to bet on a result.

\Paul
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Kenneth Morrison



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Berenice has just posted details of Lt.Col. John Macgregor VC MC and Bar DCM ED Born Nairn 1888.
http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?t=7948&highlight=
The "paving stone" schedule shows born Cawdor but I don't see his birth on scotlandspeople.
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Merseman



Joined: 07 Aug 2013
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Location: Duns, Berwickshire

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kinnethmont wrote:
Paul

If they gave it to North Lanarkshire in error because his POB was in Carluke and Carluke was not in their area they would surely ensure it ended up in the correct location.
The local Carluke papers are probably reporting it now

spoons wrote:
I would like to think so, but local politics can be a cut-throat business and I wouldn't like to bet on a result.

\Paul

I think the fear would be that someone 'given' to the wrong local authority has a connection of some kind to a location in that authority, and it makes that authority - perhaps with the best of intentions - seek to 'keep them' v passing it to another authority. Stranger things have happened.

Would it be worthwhile the SMRG producing its own list of verified PoBs?

Kenny
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:33 pm    Post subject: John Macgregor VC Reply with quote

Quote:
Berenice has just posted details of Lt.Col. John Macgregor VC MC and Bar DCM ED Born Nairn 1888.
http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?t=7948&highlight=
The "paving stone" schedule shows born Cawdor but I don't see his birth on scotlandspeople.


There appears to be confusion as to his date of birth. On his attestation to the CEF he gives 11th Feb 1888 at Nairn ( may mean County of) with NOK at Newlands, Urchany, Cawdor, Nairn.
If his parents were Willam and Hannah McGregor (as they are reported to be elswhere) his birth was registered as John McGregor, born 11th Feb 1889 at Easter Urchany, Parish of Nairn.
Looks like the attestation is exactly one year out and may be a misunderstanding or deliberate error.
I am not sure where Easter Urchany fits in regards boundaries between the parishes of Nairn and Cawdor.

The year of birth on the panel looks as if it may have been altered.

This family are in Newlands of Urchany, Parish of Nairn in 1891 and 1901. John's birthplace given as Nairn, Nairnshire.
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Kenneth Morrison



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on those I have been able to check, the most accurate "Place of Birth" schedule I have seen is at
http://www.victoriacross.co.uk/scottish.html
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Kenneth Morrison



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding dates of birth on CEF attestation papers, I'd guess that about a third of men I have researched have given an inaccurate DoB. Usually the day and month are correct but the year is out by a couple. I suppose that (unlike today) a DoB was just not important.
William Hew Clark-Kennedy gave his as 3 March 1880 (it was 3/3/79) and that has been used in a number of sources.
p.s. were the Canadians the only country to ask for DoB on attestation?
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Based on those I have been able to check, the most accurate "Place of Birth" schedule I have seen is at
http://www.victoriacross.co.uk/scottish.html



It states " T/Captain Later Lieutenant MacGREGOR, John, born Cawdor, Nairn. " . The Registratioin shows he was born in the Parish of Nairn, not the Parish of Cawdor. Near Cawdor maybe, but legally, it would appear, he was born in Nairn.
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Kenneth Morrison



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim - I think the Macgregor case just highlights the potential problems that this initiative can create. Initially I thought that Kenny's idea (posted earlier) Would it be worthwhile the SMRG producing its own list of verified PoBs? Kenny - was a really good one but now I'm wondering if we should keep well clear?????
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