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Broken Doulton & Co memorial in Paisley
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mhomac



Joined: 15 May 2010
Posts: 780
Location: South Lanarkshire

PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GRANT, ALASTAIR McMILLAN
Rank: Private
Service No: 9316
Date of Death: 02/05/1916
Age: 19
Regiment/Service: Army Cyclist Corps 32nd Bn.
Grave Reference: E. 22.
Cemetery: AVELUY COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION
Additional Information: Son of Margaret Grant, of 20, Park Avenue, Brown St., Paisley, and the late Donald Grant.

SNWM Details
GRANT, Alistair McMillan
Rank: Private
Service No: 9316
Date of Death: 02/05/1916
Other: formerly 2751 Highland L.I.
SNWM roll: Miscellaneous cyclist battalions
Theatre of death: F.& F.
Additional Information: Place of Birth—Paisley
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:21 pm    Post subject: Broken Doulton & Co memorial in Paisley Reply with quote

Quote:
Once we have some more information on this memorial and the missing names, I will be contacting the local media in my capacity as chairman of the Scottish Military Research Group.


Why not contact Royal Doulton first, since they most likely own it and may be interested in repairing it ?
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If ye break faith with us who die
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In Flanders fields.

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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4947
Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The memorial was moved here in 1939 and as the cemetery is (presumably) council owned then Renfrewshire council will be the custodians of the memorial. I think the first point of contact should be their war memorials officer - details at http://www.warmemorials.org/wmo-scotland/#P to find out what they know about the memorial, are they aware of the condition, do they accept responsibilty and what are they doing about it?

It seems probable that the renovations required (if done in the approved manner) would qualify for a 75% grant from the funds provided by Historic Scotland and administered by the War Memorials Trust.

\Paul
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David McNay
Curator


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7557
Location: Lanarkshire, Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Broken Doulton & Co memorial in Paisley Reply with quote

kinnethmont wrote:
Quote:
Once we have some more information on this memorial and the missing names, I will be contacting the local media in my capacity as chairman of the Scottish Military Research Group.


Why not contact Royal Doulton first, since they most likely own it and may be interested in repairing it ?


Doulton went into administration a few years ago and were bought out. Contacting the owners is something we intend to do at some point but I think it unlikely that they own this memorial.
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mhomac



Joined: 15 May 2010
Posts: 780
Location: South Lanarkshire

PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have spoken with people at Paisley Library, Paisley Museum and the Cemetery Dept. The information I have found is that Doulton would be responsible for the upkeep. If any contact can be made with the
Administrators they would need to agree to the repairs but the Council would need to be told as the memorial is on their wall. They would need to give permission for the repairs to be carried out.
So, it seems that we need to find someone from the Administrators to search out details from any archive details they hold.
I will continue to seek information with regards this next step.
Hope this meets with approval.
Mhomac
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David McNay
Curator


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7557
Location: Lanarkshire, Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have address details for the people who are in charge of Doultons - I will contact them.
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The memorial was moved here in 1939 and as the cemetery is (presumably) council owned then Renfrewshire council will be the custodians of the memorial.

Paul

Using that logic would mean that Councils are responsible for the upkeep of memorials, etc in their cemeteries / burial grounds. Not so, they are owned by the owner, usually the lair holder. If they want them to fall into disrepair , that is a matter for them.
A Council may have safety responsibilities on their property, but the grave stones / memorials are not theirs as Mhomac confirms in this case.

Same is true of CWGC headstones, they are owned by CWGC.
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4947
Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kinnethmont wrote:
Using that logic would mean that Councils are responsible for the upkeep of memorials, etc in their cemeteries / burial grounds. Not so, they are owned by the owner, usually the lair holder. If they want them to fall into disrepair , that is a matter for them.
A Council may have safety responsibilities on their property, but the grave stones / memorials are not theirs as Mhomac confirms in this case.

Same is true of CWGC headstones, they are owned by CWGC.


Every war memorial in Dumfries and Galloway cemeteries/burial grounds is the responsibilty of the local council (which they accept) and I would be surprised if this was not broadly so elsewhere. Certainly Renfriewshire Council permission would have been needed to place the memorial there and they should know on what terms that was accepted, hence my suggestion.

Ownership of war memorials is a different matter and that may well remain with the erectors but even so the council MAY have accepted the memorial into their care and they should be able to answer this.

In any case the council are empowered to repair and maintain any war memorial even if they choose not to do so. As such, they can give authority to renovate this memorial even if no owner can be identified and they are the only people in that position to do so.

\Paul
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many Councils maintain civic war memorials, even though they do not legally own or have them vested to them. I am also aware of Councils maintaining these in cemetries, as you suggest, but clearly this one is / was private and I suspect not the rate payers responsibility.

As for them maintaining ANY war memorial all of this depends on how the Council interprets the War Memorial Act 1948, so far as it covers Scotland. In most cases they have not used the Act to date and are not inclined, nor see the need, to do so now.

It will be interesing to see the response from Doulton.
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

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David McNay
Curator


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7557
Location: Lanarkshire, Scotland

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I checked the UKNIWM and this memorial is not listed. However, they have an entry for a memorial at the Doulton factory in Lambeth (but little information) and an entry or a Royal Doulton memorial in Staffordshire.

I will contact them to see if they can supply the names on the Staffordshire memorial - that might include the Scottish names.
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks now like Doulton may have raised memorials to the staff of their various Works. If you get an image of another one it might indicate missing details ( other than names ) on the damaged bottom section at Paisley.
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk
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DelBoy



Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 4857
Location: The County of Angus

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

David McNay wrote:
I checked the UKNIWM and this memorial is not listed. However, they have an entry for a memorial at the Doulton factory in Lambeth (but little information) and an entry or a Royal Doulton memorial in Staffordshire.

I will contact them to see if they can supply the names on the Staffordshire memorial - that might include the Scottish names.


I don't think it's the same doulton as royal doulton. They were sanitary engineers.

Derek.
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Kenneth Morrison



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 6539
Location: Rockcliffe Dalbeattie

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derek - I think it is. Doulton's started as makers of glazed sanitary wares and moved on to artistic "stuff" later. There is a reference on a "Potteries Web Site" to one of the family (Bernard) being in charge of bath foundry in Paisley - so perhaps the Paisley site was an iron works rather than ceramics, casting the bath shapes which were coated elsewhere.
Wasn't one of the casualties a pattern-maker? Making the moulds?
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Kenneth Morrison



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 6539
Location: Rockcliffe Dalbeattie

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just found this on a "Salvage" site. ( I really must get out more Rolling Eyes )

WANTED : DOULTON CAST IRON CISTERN THE PAISLEY
I am looking for a cast iron cistern called the Paisley. The photograph shows a ROyal Doulton version but there was an earlier one by Doulton and Company, Lambeth and Paisley... which I would prefer but would consider either.
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Paisley works of Doulton & Co., Sanitary Engineers closed at the end of 1936. Same company as involved with porcelain, they engaged in general and marine work.
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk
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