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Ayton - Communion table
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IanA



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:29 pm    Post subject: Ayton - Communion table Reply with quote

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IanA



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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IanA



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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IanA



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The brass plaque in the centre of the table (made by local joiners) says -

To the glory of God, and in remembrance of the men of this Parish, who died in the War 1914-1918.

David R Taylor
William Gladstone
John Frater
George Anderson
Robert Hume
Alexander Shearlaw
Charles Watt
Peter Brown
William Kerr
Peter Blake
Robert Jones
William Lauder
Thomas W Hindmarsh
Robert Lough
George Redpath
Peter Swanston
John Fair Bell
George Collin
James Edgar
John H Robertson
James Johnston
Charles Dunn
Arthur Johnston
John Burn
Robert T Walker MM
William OW Edgar
James Yule
Odo Mackay Simpson
John Lauder
William Thomson
Robert T Chapman
Thomas Fairbairn
Joseph Harvey
Peter Donoghue
Daniel Donoghue
James Purvis
Alexander Dalgetty
George Allan
James Aitchison

The Gift of the Guild of St Andrew, Ayton, 1920.
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dhubthaigh
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IanA wrote:


To the glory of God, and in remembrance of the men of this Parish, who died in the War 1914-1918.



Civic possibly?
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DerekR
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Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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Location: Hawick, Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ayton has its own civic memorial so why is this tablet here?

I'm interested to see that that

AITCHISON , Joseph A
HARVEY , Alexander
McCROW , Thomas

do not appear on this plaque although they do appear on the Ayton civic memorial.

Also that:
DONOGHUE , James , Corporal
appear as :
Peter Donoghue
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Time but th' impression stronger makes, As streams their channels deeper wear.


Last edited by DerekR on Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DerekR
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Name: SIMPSON, ODO McK.
Initials: O M
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Lieutenant
Regiment/Service: Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regiment)
Unit Text: 2nd Bn.
Age: 34
Date of Death: 13/07/1918
Additional information: Son of Sir Walter Grindley Simpson, Bart., and Lady Simpson, of Balabraes, Ayton, Berwickshire.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: XIV. A. 8.
Cemetery: NINE ELMS BRITISH CEMETERY
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Time but th' impression stronger makes, As streams their channels deeper wear.
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IanA



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 949

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhubthaigh wrote:
IanA wrote:


To the glory of God, and in remembrance of the men of this Parish, who died in the War 1914-1918.



Civic possibly?

Since the civic memorial cross is in the grounds of the kirk and this table is inside the kirk, I'd have thought it came under 'church'.
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IanA



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 949

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DerekR wrote:
Ayton has its own civic memorial so why is this tablet here?

I'm interested to see that that

AITCHISON , Joseph A
HARVEY , Alexander
McCROW , Thomas

do not appear on this plaque although they do appear on the Ayton civic memorial.

Also that:
DONOGHUE , James , Corporal
appear as :
Peter Donoghue

Peter and Daniel Donoghue appear on the roll of honour.

Aitchison and Harvey also appear on the roll but there is no McCrow.
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Merseman



Joined: 07 Aug 2013
Posts: 339
Location: Duns, Berwickshire

PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IanA wrote:

Peter and Daniel Donoghue appear on the roll of honour.

Aitchison and Harvey also appear on the roll but there is no McCrow.

McCrow appears at the end of the civic memorial list which is otherwise in alphabetical order, so he is probably a subsequent addition.


I've come across a press article about the communion table:

The Scotsman, 28th August 1920

WAR MEMORIAL TO AYTON - A war memorial, commemorating the sacrifice of the 39 men from Ayton village, who fell in the war, has been unveiled and dedicated in the Parish Church, Ayton, Berwickshire. The memorial takes the form of a massive communion table executed in Austrian oak, and carved and panelled. Insetted in the front panel is an engraved brass tablet bearing the names of the fallen.


I've been unable to find anything about the unveiling of the cross, and it's not noted in 'The Buildings of Scotland' as many local memorials are. That article wording also talks as if it's a civic memorial for the whole parish, in its style, I would suggest. Perhaps this was their first attempt at their civic memorial, and was later superceded by the memorial cross?

If you want another confusion, there was no St Andrew's Church in Ayton.

Both UF churches (Ayton Summerhill UF and Ayton Springback UF) united, in 1894, and after 1929 it was known as Ayton West until it united with the parish church in 1934.

I was told it may have a 'Mens Guild connection' and this concurs:
Quote:

http://www.ayton-village.org/Ayton_Church_Structural_Details.htm

In front of the pulpit, which commands both the transept and the nave, stand the baptismal font as well as the new communion table and the reading desk of light Spanish oak, commemorative of the men of the parish who died in the Great War and gifted by members of the Young Menís Guild and Mr John Heron respectively.

I was there earlier but missed any reading desk.
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Merseman



Joined: 07 Aug 2013
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Location: Duns, Berwickshire

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone got a theory on what method was used to order the names?

I've been trying to identify the individuals on Ayton civic memorial.
(Almost all of whom also feature on this communion table).

On the civic memorial, only their names are given in alphabetic order.


Using CWGC & SNWM I've identified 37 of the 39. Of those:
* 33 are basically definite, as something in their entry mentions Ayton.
* other 4 are fairly definite, from neighbouring parishes. Only 1 bit iffy.

If I can identify the method, I could deduce something about the maybes.

And hopefully narrow down my search for the remaining pair.


It's not alphabetical. Having checked - it's not by rank, age or regiment.

Any help appreciated.

Kenny
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Merseman



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Location: Duns, Berwickshire

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It could be by date of death, going column by column.

There seems a rough-ish pattern to it. But with a few badly out of place.


COLUMN 1
David R Taylor - 14 JULY 1915
William Gladstone - 12 JULY 1915
John Frater - 12 JULY 1915
George Anderson - 12 JULY 1915 (tbc)
Robert Hume - 20 JULY 1915
Alexander Shearlaw - 12 JULY 1915
Charles Watt - 12 JULY 1915
Peter Brown - 12 JULY 1915
William Kerr - (???)

COLUMN 2
Peter Blake - 30 JULY 1916
Robert Jones - 1 JULY 1916
William Lauder - 5 JUNE 1916
Thomas W Hindmarsh - 19 OCTOBER 1916
Robert Lough - 19 APRIL 1917
George Redpath - 23 MARCH 1917
Peter Swanston - 15 APRIL 1917
John Fair Bell - 19 APRIL 1917
George Collin - 1 DECEMBER 1917
James Edgar - 24 NOVEMBER 1917

COLUMN 3
John H Robertson - 4 OCTOBER 1917 (tbc)
James Johnston - 25 DECEMBER 1916
Charles Dunn - 19 APRIL 1917
Arthur Johnston - 16 JANUARY 1918
John Burn - 26 MARCH 1918
Robert T Walker MM - 21 MARCH 1918
William OW Edgar - 18 JULY 1918
James Yule - 24 AUGUST 1918
Odo Mackay Simpson - 13 JULY 1918
John Lauder - 5 MAY 1919

COLUMN 4
William Thomson - 26 AUGUST 1918
Robert T Chapman - 25 SEPTEMBER 1918
Thomas Fairbairn - 3 OCTOBER 1918
Joseph Harvey - 25 JULY 1918 (tbc)
Peter Donoghue - 25 SEPTEMBER 1915 (tbc)
Daniel Donoghue - 26 MARCH 1918
James Purvis - 30 SEPTEMBER 1918
Alexander Dalgetty - 12 OCTOBER 1918
George Allan - 23 OCTOBER 1918

UNDER LISTING
James Aitchison - (???)
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Adam Brown
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7312
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kenny

The two you have not identified are listed on the Burnmouth RoH as RNR and RNRT

William Kerr - Seaman, RNR
James Aitchison - Seaman, RNRT

I can identify one, whose date of death is 1915 which fits in if the names are listed in date of death order.

KERR, W
Rank:Seaman
Service No: 7593/A
Date of Death: 20/08/1915
Age: 19
Regiment/Service: Royal Naval Reserve H.M.S. "Pembroke."
Grave Reference: In North-West corner.
Cemetery: AYTON PARISH CHURCHYARD
Additional Information: Son of Mrs. Margaret Scott, of 58, Church St., Berwick-on-Tweed.

If the other man - James Aitchison was RNR and died after 11.11.18 - which may be possible if the men are listed by date of death he may not have been recorded as war dead either in SNWM or CWGC.

However there are still plenty of anomalies in the dates you've given to definitely say the men are listed in date of death order.

Adam
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Merseman



Joined: 07 Aug 2013
Posts: 339
Location: Duns, Berwickshire

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. Schoolboy error not to have checked the parish churchyard list in CWGC to see if either were buried there!

There seems to be a definite pattern to the dates - but not an exact one. I wonder, for example, if a list had been kept during the war with details of men who had died, updated each time news was received, and if this was used. No way of ever proving that, it's just conjecture - but it's an example of how lists could be roughly chronological but not exactly. There seems too much of a general trend in dates to be coincidental. (It's definetely not by theatre of death, either).

Depending where, how and when someone had died - and the vagaries of adminstration - news of the death of someone else who'd died after, might arrive before? Or if a man's next of kin weren't local, and news came subsequently.


That would still leave 3 outliers, but:

* I may have the wrong James/Peter Donoghue
(or they may have been brothers, hence listed together, which happens in a couple of memorials locally. Although... you'd have thought they'd have gone in at 1915, more likely, if that was the case. And there are other pairs of surnames who could be brothers: though nothing on CWGC by way of the next of kin suggests shared parents or residence)

* James Johnstone
(he was a Royal Defence Corps man and died right at the end of the year so I'll investigate a possible mistake regarding 1916 v 1917. I've only got a CWGC entry for him, nothing on SNWM)

* John Lauder
(again only a CWGC entry, nothing on SNWM)


So I feel I'm along the right lines.

Also agree that James Aitchison could well fall after Nov 1918 and outwith CWGC/SNWM.

I recall some other RNRTs and suchlike locally to whom this applies.
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Adam Brown
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Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the theory of the names being in the order the deaths were notified to the village. Checking the local newspaper to see when the notifications of death were published is probably the way to check if that is the case.

Adam
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