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dalblair
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Posts: 564
Location: coupar angus
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 Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:56 pm Post subject: SUTHERLAND,WARD and WATSON |
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Three names on the Fettes College Memorial cannot be traced on CWGC.They are:
2nd Lieutenant Alfred Patrick Sutherland,5th London Regiment & 5th Seaforths,KIA April 1917
Private William Denny Ward,2nd Rhodesians,KIA East Africa
Lieutenant John Mowbray Walter Watson,9th North Staffs then MGC,KIA 22August 1917
Similarly burial/grave/commemoration information is missing for:
JSBBrough,Chaplain,died of pneumonia,11th November 1918
Pilot RHBarnwell-killed in a flying accident on 25 August 1917
William Bannatyne Thomson,Colonial officer,died when SS Umgeni was sunk in November 1917
Can anyone help with any further info?
Thanks
Hugh |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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Hugh
Have you any more on Sutherland?
1057 Pte William D Ward shows as Deceased, which suggests post discharge death.
Watson is listed in SDGW as MGC. Shows died 22 Aug 1917 on MIC
Capt Brough was Mentioned in Dispatches, Jan 1917
Barnwell Checking
SS Umgeni foundered in a gale off the West of Ireland. I found a list of those lost, Thomson was not on it. I would expect he was a civilian.
I am making further checks on all of them and will update later.
_________________
Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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spoons
Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4991
Location: St John's Town of Dalry
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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Checked Airmen Died in the Great War. No trace of pilot called Barnwell having died on any date. Checked RFC, RNAS, RAF and AFC. Also no trace of anyone with a similar name dying on the date given.
\Paul |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:23 am Post subject: |
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BROUGH resigned his commission on 27.02.17 to take up a post in England with YMCA. He died at one of their training camps and is listed in their roll of Volunteers’ deaths.
As a civilian, he would not qualify for CWGC commemoration.
Watson is listed by CWGC
Name: WATSON, WALTER JOHN MOWBRAY
Initials: W J M
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Lieutenant
Regiment/Service: Machine Gun Corps (Infantry)
Unit Text: 249th Coy.
Secondary Regiment: North Staffordshire Regiment
Secondary Unit Text: formerly
Age: 24
Date of Death: 22/08/1917
Additional information: Son of Blanche Mary Watson (nee Branston), of The Shieling, Station Rd., Hampton Wick, Kingston-on-Thames, and the late John Mowbray Watson, of Edinburgh. Born at Edinburgh. Obtained Commission in 9th Bn. North Staffordshire Regt., Feb., 1915.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Valley Cottages Cem. Mem. H. 7.
Cemetery: RAILWAY DUGOUTS BURIAL GROUND
_________________
Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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dalblair
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Posts: 564
Location: coupar angus
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:10 am Post subject: UPDATED INFO |
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Thanks Jim and Paul.
Additional info:
No additional info re Sutherland-although around 23 years old.
Richard Harold Barnwell was Chief test pilot for Vickers and died in an accident flying prototype FB26 Vampire night fighter at Joyce Green in Kent.
Bannatyne Thomson was a Colonial political officer in Nigeria
Hugh |
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dhubthaigh
Our first ever 1000-poster
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 5071
Location: Blairgowrie, Perthshire
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Found MIC for Sutherland. Applied for 1914 Star on 26.5.1919 and for 1914 Clasp & medals on 23.11.1927. Two addresses listed 1) Beech Park, Broomieknowe, Lasswade and 2)Heath Lodge, Uttoxeter, Staffs. So it looks like he survived the war. |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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Location: Aberdeenshire
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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Mark
It may not be him who is referred to in 1927, but it does appear to be him in 1919.
Clearly some of the names at Fettes may be suspect as war deaths.
Hugh
Do you know his first names ?
_________________
Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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David McNay
Administrator
Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 11425
Location: Lanarkshire, Scotland
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| First names were given in Hugh's original post - Alfred Patrick Sutherland. |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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Location: Aberdeenshire
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks.
_________________
Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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dhubthaigh
Our first ever 1000-poster
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 5071
Location: Blairgowrie, Perthshire
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| If the Arthur Sutherland I mention is correct he died in Cheadle, Staffordshire in 1943. |
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dalblair
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Posts: 564
Location: coupar angus
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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Jim&Mark,
Is the MIC for Alfred Patrick Sutherland showing a 1919 claim for medals?
If so i`ll go back to my source and see if there is any background info.
Also is there a burial place shown for Brough?
Presumably Barnwell ought to be on CWGC as he was testing war craft?
Any further info on Ward?
thanks
Hugh |
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dalblair
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Posts: 564
Location: coupar angus
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:18 pm Post subject: Richard Harold Barnwell |
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Just found masses about him and his brother on Google.
Buried in St Mary`s Churchyard,Byfleet,Surrey.
Will post more details later. |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Presumably Barnwell ought to be on CWGC as he was testing war craft? |
Hugh
As chief test pilot for Vickers he was most likely a civilian who would not qualify for CWGC on his death.
There is reference to a 1919 claim for Sutherland, then in 1927.
No reference to Brough burial.
I found no more on Ward.
_________________
Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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spoons
Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4991
Location: St John's Town of Dalry
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| kinnethmont wrote: | | Quote: | | Presumably Barnwell ought to be on CWGC as he was testing war craft? |
Hugh
As chief test pilot for Vickers he was most likely a civilian who would not qualify for CWGC on his death.
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I thought that you might like to compare it with a similar civilian who also did not qualify for CWGC status but whose gravestone seems to have been made and be cared for by CWGC.
T E Perks in Troqueer New Burial Ground. http://scottishwargraves.phpbbweb.com/viewtopic.php?t=337&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=crash&start=60&mforum=scottishwargraves
My understanding is that if the plane had been shot down by enemy aircraft (direct result of enemy action) then he would have qualified. I hope I have that correct Jim?
\Paul |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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Mark
These are two different wars and different rules apply. Only certain civilians were commemorated in WW1 as war dead. The same true for WW2 but all other civilians died due to war activity should at least be recorded only in the Civilians Roll maintained by CWGC.
Perks is of the non world war grave type. I am not aware of his circumstances.
_________________
Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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