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South Queensferry Civic Memorial Queries

 
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lost in tilloy



Joined: 29 Sep 2007
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:22 am    Post subject: South Queensferry Civic Memorial Queries Reply with quote

Hi

Can I ask if anyone knows when the South Queensferry Civic memorial was unveiled?

The reason I’m asking is that I have a bit of a puzzle about a few of the casualties. The first puzzle centres around a group of three men on the memorial that I thought may have been brothers: James McArthur, John McArthur and William McArthur.

William McArthur is not a problem. He was Cpl 19545 [although CWGC has him as 9545], 13th RS, KIA 24/07/1918, aged 39. Son of John McArthur, Florist, and Emily McArthur, of Brown's Close, South Queensferry.

I’ve looked up his family in the 1901 census and as well as William there was a James [born 1895 SQ] and a John too [born 1882 SQ]. The trouble is that CWGC, SNWM & SDGW do not have casualties called James and John McArthur with any obvious South Queensferry or Dalmeny connection. The closest James McArthur Great War casualty I’ve found is Corporal S/8270, 9th Seaforth Highlanders, DOW 08/02/1918, born in Uphall around 1891.

Looking at other Great War memorials and rolls of service in South Queensferry has only deepened the puzzle. The memorial windows currently in SQ Parish Church, one of the ROH books and a Roll of Service mention none of the three of them [I think all of these were originally from SQ Free Church]. The SQ Parish Church book only mentions William as a casualty as does the old school memorial. No mention of James or John which may suggest they died after these memorials were created or of causes considered not war associated.

Looking at both the Linlithgow Gazette and the West Lothian Courier, I’m come across a few references to the McArthur’s of SQ.

John: The LG of 01/01/1915 reports that a Pte John McArthur, RSF, had been wounded. Now the only medal card that I’ve found of a man called John McArthur serving in a theatre of war with the RSF prior to 01/01/1915 was Pte 7840, 1st RSF, ETW: France 14/08/1914. Sadly I’ve found no service record or pension record for this man on Ancestry. I have come across a death certificate for a John McArthur, son of John McArthur & Emily McArthur, and obviously the brother of the William McArthur mentioned above. He died of TB at home on 27/05/1921. Could his name still have been added to the memorial by his family in time?

James: I thought I may have cracked this, but the date of death might put him beyond when the civic memorial was unveiled. The LG dated 21/05/1915 mentions a James McArthur, Seaforth Highlanders, home on leave in SQ having been wounded in the hand at La Bassee. Now there is a pension record for a James McArthur, Pte 1052, 2nd SH, who was born in SQ around 1895 that fits exactly with the 1901 family census record. No parents are mentioned on the pension record for this man. Sadly he suffered from a form of dementia, even prior to the war, but was still considered fit for service. He did go to France early on in the war and was eventually posted back to the Depot and discharged to the Morningside Asylum. I also believe that this was a brother of William. The trouble is he died of TB on 09/01/1923 which again may be too late for the civic memorial.

The LG 21/05/1915 also mentions an Alexander McArthur, Black Watch, who was a brother of James and it also states that a 3rd son [unnamed] was a POW and two others were in service. The 1901 McArthur family I mentioned had 7 sons and all could have served.

William McArthur’s service records do survive and the Army Form 5080, which lists living relatives, does mention both James and John. It was dated 01/07/1920 which was before they died of TB.

The dates of death of both James & John can help explain why they are not on the Church or School memorials as William’s is; but were they too late for the civic one?

Or is it the case that these men were not brothers at all? That would help explain why only William’s name appears on the Civic, Church and School memorials and the others don’t. Maybe I’ve missed other James & John McArthurs that have an SQ connection.

Another casualty I can’t identify for certain is John McLean. He only appears on the Civic memorial and the School memorial. SNWM, CWGC or SDGW have no man of that name with an SQ or Dalmeny connection.

Finally, Robert Kerr, Royal Scots. The SQ Parish ROH lists both a Robert C Kerr and a Robert Kerr, both Royal Scots. The Civic memorial only has Robert C Kerr as does the school memorial. I think this latter man is Pte 200897, 4th RS, KIA 27/09/1918 [also his brother William F Kerr, Pte 1468, 5th RS, KIA 24/09/1915] although none of SNWM, CWGC or SDGW have SQ or Dalmeny connection. Robert Kerr, Royal Scots, I’ve failed to find.

Any helpful hints appreciated.
Regards
LIT
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Stewartry



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 274
Location: nr Nottingham

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to let you know that I searched The Scotsman online but with no success. I did find a report of the unveiling of a the Parish Church memorial and have added that to the appropriate thread.

Your McArthur brothers' research certainly seems to hold up but as you state, until you know the date of commission/unveiling nothing can be confirmed. It looks like it may require a trawl of the local newspaper....

All the best,

Stuart
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lost in tilloy



Joined: 29 Sep 2007
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks for looking Stuart.

I should have added that I think that this memorial might be quite a late one for another reason.

One of the names on the memorial is David Fossett. It is my belief he served in the Great War as Private 5740, then 307184 in the Royal Warwickshire Regiment. The West Lothian Courier, 06/10/1916, mentions a Fossett, D., Pte 5740, Royal Warwickshire Regiment, wounded and associated with South Queensferry. This man survived the war but continued to serve in the army as Private 28785, then 2745147, in the 1st Black Watch and he was killed by a gunshot wound to the head on 20/11/1921 whilst serving in the Fort at Allahbad, India.

Given the date of his death, and the fact he is mentioned on the memorial, that pushes the unveiling into 1922 at least.
Regards
LIT
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lost in tilloy



Joined: 29 Sep 2007
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

I came across a website called the West Lothian Horizon Information Portal which has a search facility for West Lothian newspapers. I entered “Queensferry Memorial” and was given a list of newspaper reports regarding various Great War memorials [not detailed, just paper report in, date of report and a brief reference to the news article]. Ones I thought important for South Queensferry were:

Re-opening of Rosebery Memorial Hall [Courier, 05/12/1919]

Unveiling of a memorial window in the United Free Church [Courier & Gazette, 31/10/1919]

Report on the unveiling of a war memorial in Queensferry Parish Church [Courier & Gazette, 29/10/1920]

Report on the unveiling of a war memorial in Queensferry Public School [Courier & Gazette, 02/12/1921]

Report on the erection of a war memorial in Queensferry Cemetery [Gazette, 12/10/1923]

The South Queensferry war memorial plans have been approved [Courier, 15/01/1926]

Report on the unveiling ceremony of South Queensferry war memorial [Courier & Gazette, 02/12/1927]

Dedication of a memorial tablet at the South Queensferry Masonic Lodge [Courier, 29/01/1937] **Not sure if this latter one is Great War related.

However, because it looks as though the SQ civic memorial was unveiled in December 1927 then my theory about the McArthurs above could be correct. It also means that the other men I haven’t confirmed yet could have died of what was considered war related injuries years after the war ended. Could prove difficult to find some of them.
Regards
LIT
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Adam Brown
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
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Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lost in tilloy wrote:
It also means that the other men I haven’t confirmed yet could have died of what was considered war related injuries years after the war ended.


We've seen that on other memorials, so given the late date of the memorial unveiling I would agree with you that some listed here could be men who died well after the war and outside the dates for CWGC commemoration.

lost in tilloy wrote:
Could prove difficult to find some of them.


Indeed!

I'm surprised that South Queensferry took so long to erect a memorial. Edinburgh dithered for years and Portobello never did so at least in Queensferry it was better late than never.

Regards

Adam
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