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University College Dundee (then Part of St Andrews Uni)
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Keptie



Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 837
Location: near Arbroath Angus

PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:49 am    Post subject: University College Dundee (then Part of St Andrews Uni) Reply with quote

The University College Dundee War Memorial listing the names of the Casualties of the Great War was located in the University College Dundee then part of St Andrews University .

I have traced a letter from


Joan Auld , Archivist , Dundee University Library Dundee datedd 31 March 1989 and she states :

" By chance , a week or so ago I came across a photograph of a previous War Memorial which had originally been in one of the College Buildings now demolished . We have discovered that it ws UNVEILED in the "Vestibule of the College " on 25 October 1922 by Lord Provost Spence . We believe that this vestibule was in one of the original Nethergate houses which were demolished in 1958 to make way for the Tower Building . I understand from our Buildings Officer , however , that the original memorial was saved and has been put into Store .

The Idea to have a War Memorial was first proposed at a College Council meeting on 12 February 1920. There is mention of a large German Field Gun which was captured from Bulgarians and presented to University College by the Ordnance Department of the Government as a Trophy of War . The suggestion was made that the gun and proposed Memorial might be placed together on a suitable site but nothing appears to have come of this ,. Aon 12 April 1922 it was decided that the Memorial should take the form of a STONE TABLET with names and Latin Inscription .

The Memorial was not replaced by the one that is now in the foyer of the Tower Building until 1972. It was decided that this "new" memorial should commemorate those killed in both world wars. It was dedicated by Rev Professor E. P. Dickie at a service on 28 October 1972 . "


signed Joan Auld
Mrs Joan Auld
Archivist

( Sadly a few years later she was killed in a climbing accident in Canada )


.

Patrick W Anderson.
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Keptie



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:08 pm    Post subject: University college DUNDEE, Great War memorial Reply with quote

The University College Dundee Great War memorial in store at the present day Dundee University is listed in the Inventory of War memorials at London as

UKNIWM ref no 5708

.


patrick W anderson
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john burnett



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:47 pm    Post subject: Dundee Reply with quote

Thanks to Pat Anderson for the photo and the information.


This is University College War Memorial Dundee ( nowadays Dundee University ). This war memorial was in the old building of the old University College that was knocked down and the new Tower building erected in its place and the new Great War and WW2 memorial put in the "new" building. The old war memorial was put in store but no one seems nowadays to know where it is.
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Keptie



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:01 pm    Post subject: University College Dundee War Memorial 1914-1918 Reply with quote

.................... University College Dundee War Memorial :

MCMXIV - AD MAIOREM DEI GLORIAM - MCMXVIII :


CASUALTIES IN THREE PANELS OF NAMES ; Viz


.....................................Panel 1 :



Patrick Wright ANDERSON


William Richard Norton ANNESLEY


Thomas Anderson BLACKWOOD


Daniel Aloysius BRACELIN


Alexander BROUGH


John CRIGHTON


James Stewart CHALMERS


Robert Cocks CUNNINGHAM


Charles GILLESPIE


Edward Fergusson JACKSON


James Mac Cormac Caldwell JOHNSTON


John Jack KEILLOR


==============================================

Casualties : Panel 2:


David Alexander KITTO


John William KIMBER


David Aitken LUMSDEN


Neil Mac VICAR


Charles James MARTIN


Forbes MASTERTON


James MECHIE


George Eaton MILLER


James Cairns MILNE


David Alexander MITCHELL


James MUDIE


James Reid NELSON


William ORAM


James Ley PATON


===============================================

Casualties : Panel 3 :


David Wylie RINTOUL


John Mitchell SINCLAIR


John William Abbott STEGGALL


Harvey Smith STEVEN


Sidney Herbert STEVEN


William Mitchell Dashwood Stirling STRETTELL


Bernard Sylvester STURROCK


Jules Augustin VIDEMENT


Frederick Johnston WATSON


Stanley Lee WATSON


Alexander Lyle WATT


=============================================



NB

The Dundee University website has info and photo showing the Tower Building at the University which is the reception area . It has a note saying " Note the War Memorials by the front door - First World War Memorial is a replacement for the larger memorial which was originally housed in the old UNIVERSITY CHAPEL at the bottom of AIRLIE PLACE .


( I did not realise that was the location of the original war memorial above )


Patrick W Anderson
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Adam Brown
Curator


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This name caught my eye.

Jules Augustin VIDEMENT

He isn't on the CWGC database. I wonder if he was in the French armed forces?

Adam
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer my own question I looked up the online St Andrew's University Roll of Honour

http://www.archive.org/stream/rollofhonourroll00univ#page/24/mode/2up

He was a Sous-Lieutenat a L'Etat Major (a 2nd Lieutenant in the Regimental HQ) of the 74th French Infantry Territorial Regiment. He was posted as missing on 22nd April 1915. On that day the 74th Regiment were part of the 87th Territorial Division holding the line North of Ypres

Before the war he had been an assistant lecturer of French at the University.

Regards

Adam
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Keptie



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:31 pm    Post subject: University College Dundee Reply with quote

The 1914 -1918 War Memorial has Three panels of casualties for the University College Dundee :

Patrick Wright Anderson : St Andrews University OTC - cadet & Corporal , 2nd Lieut 8(Service )Bn Black Watch, Lieut 10(Service) Bn Black Watch / temp Captain- Chief Instructor , 26th Division Bombing School in France and Salonika , 18 Sqn Royal Flying Corps & Royal Air Force ( Observer - DH4 daytime bombers ), wounded in action 27 June 1918 hospitalised and died of wounds Arbroath 2 November 1921 . ( after cut off date for CWGC deaths for 1914-1919 ). Grave Western Cemetery , Arbroath compartment "D" . Listed on Scottish National War Memorial : Roll of Honour for RAF - RFC - BW - Edinburgh Castle ; listed also Arbroath War Memorial ; also on Additional Roll of Honour St Andrews University OTC (Tayforth Universities OTC ) , City Road St Andrews Fife; & St Marys Scottish Episcopal Church Arbroath - War memorial WW1 ; University College Dundee now Dundee University War memorial WW1 ; & (lost ) Roll of Honour WW1 at Arbroath High School Arbroath.

William Richard Norton Annesley, St Andrews University OTC - Staff & former O/ C of Corps , Major , Queens Own Royal West Kent Regiment ,
Died of illness caused by Military Service 29 November 1914 . grave St Andrews Fife.

Thomas Anderson Blackwood , Sub Lieut , RNR , HMS Fauvette , lost with ship mined off East Coast 9th March 1916 . Chatham Memorial to the missing . listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh Castle .

Daniel Aloysius Bracelin, St Andrews University OTC - cadet, 2nd Lieut , 3rd Reserve) Bn att 7th (Fife ) Bn Black Watch , killed in action 20 July 1918 at Bois de Courton . Mentioned in despatches . listed Arbroath War Memorial . CWGC grave France , listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh castle .

Alexander Brough , St Andrews University OTC - cadet, 2nd Lieut 12th (Service) Bn The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles ) , killed in action at Sulva the Dardanelles 17 November 1915 CWGC grave Turkey . Listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh castle

John Crighton , St Andrews University OTC - cadet, Lieut 9th (Service) Bn Black Watch , killed in action near loos 25 September 1915 Battle of Loos . CWGC grave France. listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh Castle.

James Stewart Chalmers , St Andrews University OTC - cadet , 2nd Lieut 12(Service) Bn Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders att 1st Queens Own Cameron Highlanders . Died in Glasgow 7th October 1916 from wounds received on the Somme . CWGC grave Dundee . Listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh Castle

Robert Cocks Cunningham , MC , Captain , 4th Bn Black Watch , reported Missing now presumed killed in action near Beaucourt Hamel in the valley of the Ancre river on 3 September 1916 . Listed Thiepval Memorial to the missing. Listed Scottish National War Memorial , Edinburgh Castle .

Charles Gillespie , St Andrews University OTC - cadet , 2nd Lieut 4th (Special Reserve) att 2nd Bn Highland Light Infantry. Died of wounds at Chocques near Bethune France . CWGC grave France . listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh Castle .

Edward Fergusson Jackson ,MC., St Andrews University OTC - cadet, Lieut 7th (Service) att 1st Bn Seaforth Highlanders . wounded at Hill 60 Flanders, 1 Dec 1915 , took part in capture of Samarra and Tekrit Mespotamia . Wounded near Beit Lidd near Samaria Palestine 20 Sept , died 22 September 1918 . CWGC grave Israel . listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh Castle

James MacCormac Caldwell Johnston, Lieut Royal Army Medical Corps , 76th Field Ambulance , att to 3rd Bn The Worcestershire Regiment . Killed at Vimy Ridge 27th May 1916. CWGC grave France . listed Scottish National War Memorial , Edinburgh Castle

John Jack Keillor , St Andrews University OTC - cadet , Pioneer , Specail Bn Chemistry Section , Royal Engineers , Killed in action at Cuinchy, Cambrin 12 July 1917 . CWGC grave France. listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh Castle



This covers panel ONE on the University College Dunde war memorial for 1914 -1918 :

patrick w anderson


Last edited by Keptie on Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Keptie



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:17 pm    Post subject: University College Dundee - panel 2 Reply with quote

This panel no 2 - centre panel of casualties are :

David Alexander Kitto , St Andrews University OTC - cadet, Sergeant , Royal Army Medical Corps , killed in action at Bourlon Wood , 30th November 1917 in the Battle of Cambrai. CWGC grave France , Listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh, Castle . listed on Arbroath War Memorial

John William Kimber, Instructor in Physical Culture , Fleming Gym , University College Dundee - Staff , Lieut 4th Bn , Black Watch , killed at Givenchy, 11 May 1918 . CWGC grave France , Listed Scottish National War Memorial , Edinburgh Castle .

David Aitken Lumsden, St Andrews University OTC - cadet , Captain 4th Kings (Liverpool Reg) , killed in action at Ypres 1 May 1915 . CWGC Ypres Menin Gate Memorial to the missing , ( Not listed Scottish National war Memorial even with son of David & Kate Lumsden of Dalreoch Dundee. )

Neil MacVicar , St Andrews University OTC - cadet, 2nd Lieut 2nd att 6th Bn Seaforth Highlanders . killed in action near Arras 4th May 1917 in the Battle of Arras. CWGC grave France . listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh Castle .

Charles James Martin , Sub Lieut Hood Bn , Royal Naval Div , RNVR . Killed in action Dardanelles 7 June 1915 , CWGC Helles Memorial to the missing Turkey, Listed on the Scottish National War Memorial , Edinburgh Castle .

Forbes Masterton , Able Seaman Drake Bn Clyde Div RNVR , trans to 189th Company , Machine Gun Corps RN Div , wounded in the Dardanelles , Killed in action in France 24 April 1917 , CWGC Arras Memorial to the missing . Listed Scottish National War Memorial , Edinburgh Castle

James Mechie , St Andrews University OTC - cadet ,Sapper , Div Engineers , Royal Naval Div , Mediterranean Expeditionary Force , died of enteric fever 21 July 1915 on HM Hospital ship Soudan between Dardanelles and Alexandria . CWGC Chatham Naval Memorial to the missing Kent, Listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh Castle .

George Eaton Miller , St Andrews University OTC -cadet , sergeant 1/5 Bn Black Watch , Interpreter, killed in action at Fromelles in the Second Battle of Ypres 9th May 1915. CWGC grave France . Listed Scottish National War Memorial , Edinburgh Castle born Arbroath .

James Cairns Milne , Pharmaceuticla assistant to professor of Materia Medica - Staff , Corporal Royal Army Medical Corps i/c of medical stores and dispensary Military Hospital Valetta , Killed accidentally by a live bomb at Sacile , Italy 6 November 1918 . CWGC grave Italy, Listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh Castle . born Dundee.

David Alexander Mitchell , Private Duke of Wellington's West Riding Reg , reported missing later presumed killed near Armentieres , 10 April 1918 . CWGC Tyne Cot Memorial to the missing Belgium , Listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh Castle . born Arbroath

James Mudie , St Andrews University OTC - cadet, 2nd Lieut 1st Bn Royal Scots Fusiliers att Royal Scots , killed in action in the Struma Valley , Macedonia 1 October 1916 , CWGC grave Greece, Listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh Castle .

James Reid Nelson , St Andrews University OTC -cadet, 2nd Lieut 7th (Fife) Bn Black Watch , killed in action near Arras 23 April 1917 in the Battle of Arras . CWGC grave France . Listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh Castle .

William Oram , St Andrews University OTC - cadet, Cadet / 2nd Lieut , pilot/ Royal Flying Corps April 1918 , killed in action near Etaples 8 July 1918 . ( 2nd Lieut RAF 56 Sqn RAF ) CWGC grave France. Listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh Castle .

James Ley Paton , St Andrews University OTC - cadet, 2nd Lieut 3rd (Special Reserve) Bn att 1st Bn Black Watch , killed in action naer Hulluch, France 13 October 1915 , CWGC Loos Memorial to the missing . Listed Scottish National War Memorial , Edinburgh Castle .

This is panel 2 - Centre section of memorial for 1914 -1918 casualties


patrick w anderson
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Keptie



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:00 pm    Post subject: University College Dundee panel 3 Reply with quote

Panel 3 on the University College Dundee 1914 -1918 memorial :

casualties continued :


David Wylie Rintoul , St Andrews University OTC & Battery - cadet , Lieut , Royal Army Medical Corps , killed in action near St Julien , 21 October 1914 in the first Battle of Ypres ( no trace Scottish National War Memorial - next of kin shown as residing Clifton Bristol England). CWGC Ypres Menin Gate Memorial to the missing.

John Mitchell Sinclair , St Andrews University OTC - cadet, 2nd Lieut 13th Bn Cameronians ( Scottish Rifles ) att 9th Bn Royal Irish Rifles , killed in action near Kosturina , Balkans Serbia 7 December 1915. CWGC Doiran Memorial to the missing Balkans , birth Dundee, ( CWGC index shows death 6 December 1915 ) Listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh Castle .

John William Abbott Steggall, Sapper Royal Naval Div Transferred after special training at Greenwich to HMS Invincible as Naval Instructor March 1916 , lost with the ship at the battle of Jutland 31 May 1916 . CWGC Portsmouth Naval Memorial to the Missing England . Listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh Castle . ( He was the only son of Professor Steggall of University College Dundee ) .

Harvey Smith Steven , Lieut 2/4 Bn Black Watch , Killed in action at Givenchy 7 October 1915 CWGC grave France , Listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh Castle . ( Dundee Solicitor - his brother following )

Sidney Herbert Steven , MC., Lieut , 4Bn Black Watch , reported missing on 25 September 1915 and later believed to be killed in action at the Battle of Loos . CWGC loos Memorial to the missing. Listed Scottish National War Memorial . (next of kin Broughty Ferry ) ( brother preceding )

William Mitchell Dashwood Stirling Strettell , St Andrews University OTC - cadet, Captain 4 (Special reserve) Bn Highland Light Infantry , wounded May 1915 while att 2nd Bn Kings Own Scottish Borderers , seconded to 1st Garrison Bn Royal Scots , att Royal Flying Corps , ass instructor Flying at central flying School , posted as Test Pilot on Staff of No 1 Aeroplane supply depot , killed in action near St Omer 28 November 1917. CWGC grave France . Listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh Castle . (birth Stirling).

Bernard Sylvester Sturrock , Lieut 1/ 4 Bb Black Watch , killed in action in the battle of Loos 25 September 1915. CWGC loos Memorial to the missing. Listed Scottish National War Memorial , Edinburgh Castle .

Jules Augustin Videment , Assist Lecturer in French at the University - Staff , Sous 0 Lieutenant a l'Etat Major du 74me Regiment d'Infanterie Territoriale , Missing 22 April 1915 . Mentioned in despatches twice an awarded the Croix de Guerre.

Frederick Johnston Watson , Lieut Cameron Highlanders , 43rd Canadian Infantry Bn , Killed in action at Zillebeke Ypres 10 June 1916 . CWGC grave Belgium . Listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh Castle Canadian Exp Force ( born Arbroath ) ( Brother of Stanley Lee Watson : next ).

Stanley Lee Watson , Captain , 1/4 Bn Black Watch killed in action at Pont du Hem , 26 September 1915 in the battle of Loos , CWGC loos memorial to the missing . Listed Scottish national War Memorial ( brother of preceding ) .

Alexander Lyle Watt , Captain , 5Bn Black Watch , killed in action at the Battle of Neuve Chapelle 10 March 1915 , CWGC grave France . Listed Scottish National War Memorial Edinburgh Castle .


This completes the panel 3

patrick w anderson
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Keptie



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:37 am    Post subject: University College Dundee Reply with quote

Around 1990 Monsieur Jean Luc Gibot and Monsieur Lucien Marcheux ploughed up a set of RAMC shoulder flashes , a razor , a watch and a pen knife in a field near Villers-Plouich a small village near Cambrai . They got permission for further excavations whereupon an incomplete set of human remains was found. These were later identified to SERGEANT DAVID ALEXANDER KITTO who had been killed in actionin 1917 and whose name is listed on the memorial to the missing at Cambrai.

Sergeant Kitto was born in Barry ,Angus and enlisted into the Army at Harthill where he was a school teacher. He was a member of the 37 Field Ambulance RAMC which was in 36th Brigade of 12 (Eastern ) Div , III Corps , 3rd Army . Sergeant Kitto was killed on the first day of the German Counter attack at Cambrai on 30 November 1917 and at the time of his death he was just 32 years old. Sergeant Kitto left a young wife in Arbroath .

Newspaper reports for 1993 report that the CWGC traced a brother in law aged 90 to Longforgan Dundee and due to this gentleman's age his two sons attended the Military funeral at Terlinchthun British Cemetery near Wimille in the Pas de Calais region . The military funeral was held according to the rites of the Church of Scotland and Sgt Kitto's own Corps provided the bearer and saluting party all the men coming from 2nd Armoured Field Ambulance RAMC then based at Osnabruck , Germany.

an extra bit of info on Sgt DA Kitto )

patrick w anderson
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Iain McIntyre



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:08 pm    Post subject: The University College War Memorial, Dundee Reply with quote

The old memorial was discovered in storage at Seabank in the 1970s. It was extensively damaged and many sections were missing altogether. An attempt was made to salvage the remnants but this was abandoned and I believe that what had been found was buried.
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spoons



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few weeks ago I asked the War Memorials Trust if they had any info on this memorial and I have today received a reply from Amy Davidson.

"I have spoken with the Curator at the Dundee University archives who has confirmed that to the best of his knowledge they do not have the memorial in storage. He said the memorial was located in one of the University’s original buildings, but after this was demolished in the 1950s the history of the memorial becomes uncertain. There has been some suggestion that it was located to the Chapel, but this was also demolished and replaced. As you know, when a new tower was built on the site of the original University buildings a new, smaller, WWI memorial was placed there, as well as an additional WWII memorial. It is not clear what happened to the memorial, but there are also reports that it had been damaged. It seems that in the past, staff at the University have suggested that it is in storage, but perhaps without having fully investigated whether this is indeed the case.

Therefore, I am afraid that it seems likely that in this case due to the size and condition of the memorial it may have been disposed of. The University definitely seems to have no records identifying what happened to it. The Curator advised me that they do get a number of enquiries regarding the memorial and they have tried to research what happened to it, but have not found any information.

I have passed this information to the Inventory, and they have updated their records: .

http://www.ukniwm.org.uk/server/show/conMemorial.5708/fromUkniwmSearch/1"

I think we now have to accept that this memorial is lost but it's great that we have a photo of it.

\Paul
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Keptie



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:43 pm    Post subject: University College Dundee Reply with quote

Thanks Paul and I have got three variations of hearsay stories about what happened to the dismantled war memorial that went to store . It was obviously too large for the new war memorial section that is located in the Tower Building in the present Dundee University that lists the casualties of the Great War memorial and the WW2 memorial . Due to the time factor in the storing of the Great War memorial and the present time many people who could tell us the factual story have all gone and now we are only hearing Hearsay evidence which seems to vary .

I have received great assistance from the staff at the Dundee University Archives on this enquiry and also from the present Curator of the Dundee University Museum . As he said had there been a curator of the Dundee University when the Great War Memorial was dismantled I am sure that this memorial would have been kept at the Uni's Museum and it would not have been "lost" .

I have an even better quality photograph of this Great War Memorial than the one I added to this index .

patrick w anderson

in Memory of Lieut Patrick Wright Anderson, ( Cpl St Andrews Uni OTC 1911 -1914 to outbreak of war ) , commissioned for War Service : 8 th (Service ) Bn Black Watch, 10th (Service) Bn Black Watch, Observer in DH4's with 18 Sqn RFC & RAF -wounded in action 27 June 1918 & died of wounds . Grave Western Cemetery Arbroath Angus .

.
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Keptie



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:04 pm    Post subject: UNIVERSITY COLLLEGE DUNDEE war memorial Reply with quote

COURIER & ADVERTISER Saturday 13 November 2010 : All editions
( Perthshire, Angus & Mearns , Fife, Dundee etc )

CAN ANYONE HELP LOCATE UNIVERSITY WAR MEMORIAL by CRAIGIE :


PATRICK W. ANDERSON of letham Angus , writes "At this time of year , as we prepare for Remembrance Sunday , I wonder if any readers can provide any information on the location of the missing UNVIVERSITY COLLEGE DUNDEE war memorial for the 1914-1918 war ? It listed 37 former students and staff from the college , then part of St Andrews University , who lost their lives .

"During 1989, I was in touch with the late Joan Auld , archivist at Dundee University , who said taht this memorial for the Great War had been unveiled in the vestibule of the College on October 25, 1922 by Lord Provost Spence.

"She believed that the original Nethergate Houses were demolished in 1958 to make way for the Tower Building, adding that the memorial had been saved and put in store . It ws first proposed by the college council meeting of 1920 and in April 1922 , it was decided that the memorial should take the form of a stone tablet with names and Latin inscriptions .

"Years later, it was decided that a new memorial should be made to recognise the students and staff of the University College who were killed in both world wars . This new memorial was dedicated by the Rev Professor E P Dickie , in 1972 , in the foyer of the Tower Building at the Dundee University.

"The original memorial was in the university store but I have been in contact with Dr Kenneth Baxter, assistant at Dundee University archives , who said that the memorial was thought to have been moved to a church store in Hunter Street around 1969 , but his lines of inquiry within the university then went cold.

"I have also been in contact with Matthew Jarron, Dundee University Museum curator, who would be pleased to locate this original war memorial .

"The students of University College were usually local and , of the 37 named casualties were from ARBROATH , BONNYRIGG, BROUGHTY FERRY, CARNOUSTIE, DUNDEE, PERTH , STIRLING, and ST ANDREWS .

"David A. Kitto, RAMC from Carnoustie was killed in action and his body was found in Flanders and given a military funeral . John W A Steggall , Royal Navy , was the son of University College lecturer , Professor Steggall .

"It is sad that this memorial may have been lost and forgotten about. Maybe some readers may have details to further the inquiry ."


.



patrick w. anderson

.
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dalblair



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Designed by Mills&Shepherd,Dundee
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