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GEORGE MCDONALD
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dhubthaigh
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:25 pm    Post subject: GEORGE MCDONALD Reply with quote

George McDonald is commemorated at Scone (+ everywhere else apart from CWGC!);

Surname McDONALD
Firstname George
Service Number S/7765
Date Death 25/09/1915
Decoration
Place of birth Scone Perthshire
Other 8th Bn.
SNWM roll THE BLACK WATCH (ROYAL HIGHLANDERS)
Rank L/Cpl
Theatre of death F.& F.









Last edited by dhubthaigh on Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:17 pm    Post subject: L/Cpl George McDonald, Black Watch Reply with quote

Mark

As it happens IFCP are checking the McDonald/MacDonald surnames at the moment.
None of the above are alone acceptable as evidence. Will advise.

Did you notice the variation in the surname spelling in the various sources given.
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Stewartry



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He is listed as killed in action (with about 50 men of the 8th Black Watch) in a casualty list published in The Scotsman on Saturday, 6th November 1915, page 12.

Stuart
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DerekR
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are no L/cpl McDonalds listed on the Loos Memorial so its not just a case of the CWGC missing George off their database. His death appears to have been totally overlooked.
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dhubthaigh
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DerekR wrote:
There are no L/cpl McDonalds listed on the Loos Memorial so its not just a case of the CWGC missing George off their database. His death appears to have been totally overlooked.


Shocked
Will his name have to be inscribed thereon. How does that happen. Will we get invited ?
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:01 pm    Post subject: L/Cpl George McDonald, Black Watch Reply with quote

If it should turn out that he is missing from the CWGC roll and a case can be made and accepted his name would be added to a Memorial to the Missing, most likely the Loos Memorial at Dud Corner. It would not be a public event but would be carried out by CWGC staff during planned work, and might take years to be done. Their obligation to record his name in the Debt of Honour Roll would be effected without delay, once accepted.

We would still need to find a service record, Death Certificate or official paperwork to progress this. The MIC and SDGW records will not be accepted as absolute proof, they can be prone to error. SNWM used SDGW as a source. The Obit and MIC are at odds on his month of landing in the France.
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:23 pm    Post subject: L/Cpl. S/7765 George McDonald, 8th Black Watch Reply with quote

L/Cpl. S/7765 George McDonald, 8th Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) has been forwarded as a case, on Mark's behalf, to CWGC / MOD as an in service death Non Comm.

George McDonald was born at Quarry Mill, Scone on 20th December 1887, not 24th Dec 1888 as stated in the Obit.
In due course a Death Certificate will be obtained to confirm his death.

Of the 49 men reported killed in the Scotsman Casualty List mentioned by Stuart all are missing and commemorated at Dud Corner, with the exception of two, who are buried at Vermelles.

I will update when further details are available.



Well done Mark in finding him.
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim

Good news, thanks for the update.

Since he is on the SNWM Roll was this an oversight by the War Office not passing on Lance Corporal McDonald's details to the IWGC do you think?

With so many unidentified bodies for the fatalities of 8th Black Watch on that day without notification from the WO then the Commission would not have been aware he was missing.

In your experince with the IFCP is this quite common for dates when there were large numbers of dead and a great many unidentified?

Just a thought here. Could a comparison of the details such as surname and number in SNWM be run against the CWGC database to see which ones in the SNWM database don't match CWGC entries?

It may help with the IFCP search by throwing up men like L/Cpl McDonald.

Regards

Adam
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam

He could be missing for a variety of reasons. In this case his listing in SNWM probably was taken from SDGW which was a source they used. SDGW is full of errors, as we know, so this can be repeated. I am aware of some on SDGW who died before the war actually started ie. July 1914.


Quote:
With so many unidentified bodies for the fatalities of 8th Black Watch on that day without notification from the WO then the Commission would not have been aware he was missing.


The Commission were only aware of the details the Army gave them long after 1915, the organisation only came into being in 1917.
You need to remember that as well as unidentified bodies, some disapeared altogether and it was sometimes many months / years before the dead in no mans land could be buried, as was the case at Loos.

A comparison would not be conclusive since CWGC records will not relate directly to those on SNWM as the criteria used are totally different. IFCP check the overseas deaths against CWGC ( and can further check against SDGW). They are presently checking the Mc / Mac surnames and this one would likely have come to light in that.

One would assume the greater the number of casualties during a particular period of action, the greater the scope for error. I am unsure if this actually is the case as a lot of the non comms being found now will be down to regimental record keeping, etc. Add to that the confusion of battle, possibity of being a POW, aliases, etc, mistakes are understandable.

I suspect that this was the root of the problem here, and posibly assisted by the NOK not following things up at the time. We will never know.
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DerekR
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done to all concerned.
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dhubthaigh
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THE PEOPLE'S JOURNAL: 30.10.1915
FOR THEIR COUNTRY


MACDONALD - Killed in action on 25th Sept., George, second son of Mr and Mrs MacDonald, Burnside, Scone, and beloved husband of Margaret Smart, Margaret Place, Camphill, Broughty Ferry.

Above this entry in the deaths column

MACDONALD - At Burnside, Scone, on 26th inst. Ronald George, infant son of Mrs MacDonald, and the late George MacDonald, Camphill, Broughty Ferry, aged 8 weeks.
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:02 pm    Post subject: L/Cpl. S/7765 George McDonald, 8th Black Watch Reply with quote

Mark
A sad tale and tragic for his wife to lose her husband and their infant son within a short time.
Thanks for the detail.

Interestingly George is not recorded on the Broughty Ferry War Memorial.
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David McNay
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I now have a copy of his death notice as recorded at GROS and have sent it on to kinnethmont.
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:47 pm    Post subject: L/Cpl. S/7765 George McDonald, 8th Black Watch Reply with quote

David

Thanks for the detail.
The Service Returns list is not acceptable, what is required is the official Extract Death Certificate. In McDonald's case, as an in service death, IFCP will obtain it from GRO.
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David McNay
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:26 am    Post subject: Re: L/Cpl. S/7765 George McDonald, 8th Black Watch Reply with quote

kinnethmont wrote:
David

Thanks for the detail.
The Service Returns list is not acceptable, what is required is the official Extract Death Certificate. In McDonald's case, as an in service death, IFCP will obtain it from GRO.


That's odd, because it was acceptable when I submitted an error a year or so ago.
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