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Lieut J B Pattison, Black Watch
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Keptie



Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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Location: near Arbroath Angus

PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 6:29 pm    Post subject: Lieut J B Pattison, Black Watch Reply with quote

Lieutenant John Buchanan PATTISON, 7th Bn The Black Watch died at home at 1 Tolbooth Street, Crail , Fife on 1 August 1924 aged 27 years . His headstone is in Crail Parish Churchyard Section A lair 19 and his parents are listed on the headstone with later death dates.

Lieut J B Pattison attended Wade Academy , Anstruther and joined the staff of the Clydesdale Banking Corporation at Anstruther during 1913 and when he was 18 years of age during August 1915 he enlisted in the Motor Machine Gun Service and posted to France for active service . He was commissioned 2nd Lieutenant into the Black Watch on 5 Sept 1916 and joined the 7th Bn The Black Watch on 12 December of that year . He was posted to the Trench Mortar battey during 1917 .

Serving with the 7th Bn The Black Watch was Arbroath born Lieutenant James Bell Salmond ( later to be author /historian , Scots Magazine editor etc ) . Lt J B Salmond snr was my father's cousin .

On 30 July 1917 2nd Lieut Pattison was wounded to the neck , leg and right heel when serving with the Trench Mortar Battey then aged 20 years of age said the newspaper reports in Fife.

On 5 March 1918 2nd Lieut Pattison was appointed Lieutenant within the 7th Bn The Black Watch in France and on active service . The battalion was disembodied at Kinross during 1919 and Lieut J B Pattison may have been discharged from the Regiment to return to his banking career but on 1 August 1924 he died of Pulmonary Tuberculous - 2 years and 10 months and Tuberculous Enteritis .

Maybe this TB was as a result of serving in the Trenches in the Great War of France as he died 2 years 10 months of having been diagnosed with this illness of these years ..

He is not listed on the CWGC index as he died after their Great War casualty period of 4 August 1914 - 31 August 1921 .

There is no mention of his death in the Black Watch Red Hackle Magazine that was being published in the post Great War period to the present time ..

Ref : Fife Family History Society Journal New Series No 3 : Spring 2005 article " Liuetenant J B Pattison, Black Watch by Patrick W. Anderson

.

Patrick W Anderson
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 10:19 pm    Post subject: Lieut J B Pattison, Black Watch Reply with quote

Patrick

There might, or might not, be a connection between his service and his death due to TB, but he died five years after leaving the Army.

TB was not uncommon then, he may well have contracted it some time after his service ended. As you state, he cannot be commemorated by CWGC since he died in 1924.

Quote:
Have you found a man not commemorated by the CWGC?

I am not sure how he fits into this section with administrators, he is not a CWGC non comm as he did not die between 4 August 1914 - 31 August 1921
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David McNay
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no problem with this section being used for men who are outwith the criteria.
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 11:07 pm    Post subject: Lieut J B Pattison, Black Watch Reply with quote

Quote:
Folks

David has just added a new secdtion to the forum. It is called Non-commemorations and can be found here:

http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/viewforum.php?f=151

It is for men and women people who have come across in their research who have not been commemorated by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

There have been a few cases recently where men and women have had their names added to the CWGC records and we wanted to highlight the successes of those who have put so much effort into finding out the details and passing them on to the CWGC.

We've moved a few existing threads over to the new section but if you know of the details of a commemoration which have been posted within a memorial thread then can the details and a link be added to the new section.

We can also use it for any work in progress identifications where people are building a case to pass to the CWGC.



Fair enough, I thought it did relate to CWGC Commemorations and, in consequence, the criteria used for same was relevant. Please delete my response.
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David McNay
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps, but I'm in charge and reserve the right to change things. This man (and many others) are as much casualties of war as any other and so deserve some form of commemoration. I therefore have no problem with cases like this (which I appreciate will never be included by the CWGC) being included here.
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread has gone a bit off-topic from the original post but it highlights that we have a potential for a few non-comms turning up on memorials which were erected or had extra names added after August 1921.
We have one memorial which lists a man who died in 1930 and there are no doubt many others where men died in the 1920s.
They don't meet the CWGC or SNWM criteria for inclusion on a database but are remembered by their local communities and I think we should do our best to try and identify them in this section.

Regards

Adam
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Keptie



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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 3:31 pm    Post subject: Non Comm Reply with quote

Adam,

My namesake Uncle, Lt P W Anderson, 8 BW , 10 BW, & 18 Sqn RFC /RAF wounded in action in DH4 with 18 Sqn RAF on 27 June 1918 and died back home in Arbroath Infirmary on 2 Nov 1921 is listed on the
SNWM index even though he is not classed as a War casualty by the CWGC due to his death from wounds . His wounds were serious as even in 1920's prior to his death he was still having to dress his wounds daily with the daily visit of the Arbroath GP , Dr JEG Thomson MC

The SNWM added my Uncle's name to their Edinburgh Castle index as I produced the death certificate saying Death from wounds ( received in action in the Great War ) and newspaper reports of his wounding and Obituary reports covering his health since he was sent home to Arbroath on Armistice Day 1919 to die as they could do no more for him . He was even sent to the warmth of the South of France by the Officers Assoc (Scotland) in 1920 for a long furlong but came back home and with a further Arbroath Infirmary op on the wounds area he died a few days later of his serious stomach wounds . He had also thigh wounds as well but they would not seem to have been life threatening as the stomach wounds .

Hope this will help to clarify the query on the SNWM index .
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pat

Many thanks for that. I was unaware that the SNWM would accept submissions for dates as late as that. In theory then non-commemorations which do not meet CWGC criteria may still meet SNWM criteria depending on the circumstances of the death.

Regards

Adam
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Keptie



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 4:30 pm    Post subject: Lt Pattison BW Crail Reply with quote

Adam

Yes, back in the 1990s I delivered a full case of evidence to the Secretary of the SNWM , a Lt Colonel , for consideration regarding my namesake Uncle Lt P W Anderson so with the details of the death certificate and the obituaries from newspapers of 1921 covering his life from the ambulance train arriving at Arbroath on Armistice Day 1919 til his death on 2 Nov 1921 they must have decided that he had no life and it was a case of death expected soon or shortly as even the hospitals sent him home to dress his wounds daily .

Yes , I wrote to Mr Gee , Director of CGWC about my uncle and I said that General Auckinleck died 40+ years after the cut off date and he got a MOD grave and headstone in Casablanca , North Africa and I was told in his reply that Generals never retired so get a MOD headstone !

Kind Regards

Patrick W Anderson
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 8:15 pm    Post subject: Lieut J B Pattison, Black Watch Reply with quote

Adam

Since this continues to go off topic I might add.

SNWM have a different set of criteria from CWGC for admission to their Rolls, without connection between the two.

It is
"A member of the Armed Forces of the Crown or of the Merchant Navy who was either a Scotsman (i.e. born in Scotland or who had a Scottish born father or Mother) or served in a Scottish Regiment and was killed or died (except as a result of suicide) as a result of a wound, injury or disease sustained (a) in a theatre of operations for which a medal has been or is awarded; or (b) whilst on duty in aid of the Civil Power." "

As to the cut off for death due to service related causes, clearly it cannot go on indefinately. I am aware of SNWM listings up to early 1927 which may indicate they end about the time the Memorial was opened in July 1927. This assumes they were not actually serving soldiers.

The difficulty is obtaining the level of absolute proof required by SNWM, usually nothing less than the Service Record and a DC will suffice. They, like CWGC, have no remit to search for evidence.
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim

Many thanks, although off-topic from the original post it does answer questions raised in subsequent posts. I think we will probably have to split this thread.

That's good to get a clarification on possible dates and also the criteria for inclusion on the SNWM. I wouldn't think there would be that many deaths after 1927 attributed directly to war wounds but the people of Kinlochewe felt there was enough case to add a name to their war memorial after 1930 so it can't be entirely ruled out. (Just because a casualty met community criteria for comemoration doesn't mean it will meet the SNWM criteria though).

Regards

Adam
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 9:16 am    Post subject: Lieut J B Pattison, Black Watch Reply with quote

Adam

If you think about it, men were dying 40+ plus years after WW1 due to their war wounds. I know of a man who attended hospital weekly to the 1960's. He never worked again.

There is no direct connection between, CWGC, SNWM and those named on our war memorials.


Quote:
I think we will probably have to split this thread.


I agree, but think there may be a case for splitting this section. I had already asked for my earlier posts here to be removed
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk


Last edited by kinnethmont on Sat May 30, 2009 9:31 am; edited 3 times in total
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Keptie



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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 9:17 am    Post subject: Lt Pattison Reply with quote

Adam and folks

My Uncle's CO of 18 Sqn RAF around October 1918 and after my Uncle was wounded and of course still hospitalised had a " pre Armistice Party " on the airfield in France when some pilot at the party fired a Varey flare and it hit the C O on the head and he died of his wounds in a CCS . He has a CWGC headstone

A New Zealand airman on pilot training in Britian was told the war was ended and he would get his discharge back to NZ so he and another Officer airman went climbing on Ben Nevis and fell to his death in 1919 . He has a CWGC plot near Fort William.

General Auckinleck died 40+ years after the cut off date for WW2 casualties and he got an official plot in Casablanca North Africa .

My Uncle died on 2 Nov 1921 from wounds received in action in June 1918 and was hospitalised most of the time following it or with medical daily treatment prior to the final hours . He died after the CWGC cut off date of 31 Aug 1921 but the London Gazette records that the King had authorised his retention of his rank as Lieutenant when he relinquished his commission due to wounds . He was unfit for any further Military service .

just some instances re CWGC


patrick w anderson
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick

I think we have been round this course before elswhere on the Forum.
The first three were serving, the fourth died after the cut off date. I am sorry that it how it turned out.

CORRECTION

Auchinleck's was not serving and his rank makes no difference, the detail above was incorrect.
It is only Admirals of the Fleet, Field Marshals and Marshals of the Royal Air Force - the highest rank in each service who continue for life.
Prior to 1940 each of these highest ranks retired just as any other officer, as in the case of FM Haig.
In 1940 the rule was changed and these highest ranks gained 'in active service for life' status. Those that had retired when the rule changed (and were still alive) were brought back to the active list. That is the situation which still pertains today though the ranks are no longer conferred.

Auchinleck died outside the CWGC dates so does not have an official war grave. Check BEN M'SIK EUROPEAN CEMETERY on CWGC, he is not there. This is a local authority run cemetery and so anyone can be buried there.
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk


Last edited by kinnethmont on Sun May 31, 2009 9:06 am; edited 4 times in total
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Keptie



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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 12:37 pm    Post subject: Lt Pattison death after active service Reply with quote

Hi Jim ,

Yes , so the CWGC does not have just casualties who have died on operational duties in a theatre of war

I accepted the conditions of the CWGC and the MOD as well in that to get a War Office /MOD headstone the deceased must be Serving in the HM Forces

I will not continue this matter further

kind regards

Patrick w anderson
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