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spoons
Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4991
Location: St John's Town of Dalry
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 Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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The card says Charles Grant with number 200472 and for the right regiment so a definate puzzle.
\Paul |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What about the War Returns in General Register Office? I know the infomation there is basic but if they are not listed there than that should mean that they didn't die shouldn't it? |
Adam
Unfortunately not. As I have found several times it means he is missing from official records.
I had a recent case where the man who was missing in the field, presumed dead with 10 others. The battalion diary confirmed the action of the day. With the exception of him the others were later posted as died.
Official word later came back to the family that he was dead yet his battalion had no record of this and his death was not on a Service Return ( and so not in Edinburgh NRH today). Details appeared in the local papers and they added his details to the family headstone.
Because of the error he was not listed on SDGW or SNWM. He was also unknown to CWGC since not reported as dead by the regiment.
As luck would have it, somehow unusually, his paybook was taken from his body and it, in time, found its way the the National Library in Edinburgh. Due to Scots Law the copy Paybook Will was accompanied by a letter from the War Office confirming the date of his death and his service details. This confirmed his service and death serving in the Army in 1917. He is now commemorated by CWGC 91 years later with his name already on the Tyne Cot Memorial.
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Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
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Adam Brown
Curator
Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7312
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Jim
Thanks for the detail. I'd hoped the General Register could be relied on as a definitive source but if they were relying on War Office returns then I suppose they are going to have the same sorts of errors other sources have.
Regards
Adam |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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Paul
It looks like the correct Grant and the 200472 number would tie with a 1917 death. We are left with mistake in one of the sources, though.
MIC's alone are not sufficient evidence for CWGC as they are not an official document and can be incorrect.
_________________
Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
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spoons
Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4991
Location: St John's Town of Dalry
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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At least they tell us that his initial could be C and not D. It may also be that the MIC for Hood and the service records for either could exist and just not be on Ancestry yet.
\Paul |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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Paul
There is no MIC for a man in the Cameronians with that number, nor is there a JH Hood. Very odd. I'm beginning to wonder if he was a Home death.
_________________
Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
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Stewartry
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 274
Location: nr Nottingham
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| Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Hi all,
There is an MIC for John Hood, but he is numbered as 9705/201275 by both the NA and Ancestry. I can see how the mistake has happened because it could very easily be read as a 5 not a 3. However, another man, 9708 Andrew Percy is the true 201275 man. With a bit of checking out, the sequence can be worked out as:
9705/201273 John Hood
9706/[201274] David Stewart, latterly 387489 Labour Corps
9707/-------- James Marshall, discharged 19.5.16
9708/201275 Andrew Percy
John Hood's MIC also states 'K in A'. I will post a pic soon.
Stuart
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Stewartry
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 274
Location: nr Nottingham
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire
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| Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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Stuart
I am now aware these men died in service and their Wills should prove this.
They are listed as:
201273 Private Hood or John H Hood, 5th Bn. or 2nd, Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)
and
200472 Private D Grant or Charles Grant, 5th Bn. or 2nd, Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)
Same unit , both missing. Looks like poor record keeping by the Cameronians.
Will check further and advise
_________________
Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
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Adam Brown
Curator
Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7312
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)
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| Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:22 am Post subject: |
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There have been a few cases recently where non commemorations have been identified and it looks like there are more here.
These cases have been spread across the forum, not just within queries and requests. Perhaps we could have a list on forum news with links to threads like these?
Derek posted one yesterday and Jim has been on a roll too with several identified and accepted recently.
I know it's been mooted before but not taken further because the Great War Forum has its own section for this but we’ve obviously got several experts in the field here and I think all this effort should be recognised on this forum too.
Regards
Adam |
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dhubthaigh
Our first ever 1000-poster
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 5071
Location: Blairgowrie, Perthshire
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| Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 11:47 am Post subject: |
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Adam,
I agree, we should have our own non-comms. section. I thought it was the GWF's 'baby' but there are obviously those who can help here or at least provide info. on how to submit a case. I've actually got a fair few I could throw forward for consideration.
Mark |
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David McNay
Administrator
Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 11425
Location: Lanarkshire, Scotland
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| Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| dhubthaigh wrote: | Adam,
I agree, we should have our own non-comms. section.
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Done!
Can the mods move any topics of this nature into the new section?
Thanks. |
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dhubthaigh
Our first ever 1000-poster
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 5071
Location: Blairgowrie, Perthshire
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 10:13 am Post subject: |
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A very poignant piece I discovered relating to George A. C. MacKinlay. It is taken from 'The Young Barbarian' - Christmas 1919 Edtn;
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:31 pm Post subject: Ptes Hood and Grant |
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The following detail is now known of these men. They were originally 1st/5th Battalion T.F. Cameronians men who were later posted to the 2nd Battalion. This may have happened after the 5th were merged in May 1916.
201273 (formerly 9705) Pte John Hood, 2nd or 5th Cameronians ( Scottish Rifles) died Belgium 17th August 1917. Son of Margaret Hood, 127 Oran Street, Maryhill, Glasgow.
200472 (formerly 7060) Pte Charles Grant, 2nd or 5th Cameronians ( Scottish Rifles) KIA 16th August 1917. Nephew of Peter Grant, 12 Ruthven Street, Kelvinside, Glasgow.
_________________
Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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DelBoy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 4858
Location: The County of Angus
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Were these cases ever put forward? I can find them on SNWM but still nowhere on CWGC?
Cheers,
Derek. |
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