The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project

Murray · Joined: 21 Jan 2008 Posts: 64

The following are possible matches. The information is from CWGC and x referenced with SNWM;

Name: BARRIE, JOSEPH
Initials: J
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)
Unit Text: 4th/5th Bn.
Date of Death: 31/07/1917
Service No: 202395
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 37.
Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

Name: BEATTIE, ANDREW
Initials: A
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)
Unit Text: 8th Bn.
Age: 44
Date of Death: 10/04/1918
Service No: 2972
Additional information: Son of William and Jane Beattie, of 12, Park Avenue, Dundee. Born Mid Mill, Dundee.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: I. K. 54.
Cemetery: VOORMEZEELE ENCLOSURES No.1 and No.2

Name: CARRIE, DAVID YOUNG
Initials: D Y
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Lance Serjeant
Regiment/Service: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)
Unit Text: "C" Coy. 8th Bn.
Age: 24
Date of Death: 20/10/1918
Service No: 3/16463
Additional information: Son of Charles and Betsy Fullerton Carrie, of 3, Smith St., Fairmuir, Dundee. Born at Broughty Ferry, Forfarshire.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: IX. A. 10.
Cemetery: HARLEBEKE NEW BRITISH CEMETERY

Cameron, Rob

Name: COOK, GORDON
Initials: G
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Corporal
Regiment/Service: Highland Light Infantry
Unit Text: "C" Coy. 12th Bn.
Age: 20
Date of Death: 19/06/1916
Service No: 18374
Additional information: Son of William and Mary Ann Cook, of Balmuir Lodge, Dundee.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: V. E. 48.
Cemetery: BETHUNE TOWN CEMETERY

Clark, William

Name: CUTHILL, WILLIAM
Initials: W
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)
Unit Text: "D" Coy 4th Bn.
Age: 19
Date of Death: 25/09/1915
Service No: 1602
Additional information: Son of James and Margaret Cuthill, of 15, Arklay St., Dundee.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 78 to 83.
Memorial: LOOS MEMORIAL

Name: DEAR, WILLIAM GILBERT
Initials: W G
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Machine Gun Corps (Infantry)
Unit Text: 73rd Coy.
Date of Death: 31/07/1917
Service No: 9989
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 56.
Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

Name: FERGUSON, WILLIAM
Initials: W
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)
Unit Text: 4th Bn.
Date of Death: 25/09/1915
Service No: 1789
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 78 to 83.
Memorial: LOOS MEMORIAL

Jack, ? S

Name: KIDD, DAVID
Initials: D
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)
Unit Text: 6th Bn.
Age: 20
Date of Death: 28/07/1918
Service No: 240800
Additional information: Son of David and Betsy Kidd, of The Anchorage, Bridge St., Burnhill, Broughty Ferry, Forfarshire.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: VIII. C. 3.
Cemetery: CHAMBRECY BRITISH CEMETERY

Low, ?

Name: MASTERTON, WILLIAM ANDERSON
Initials: W A
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Corporal
Regiment/Service: Royal Army Medical Corps
Unit Text: 3rd Highland Field Amb.
Secondary Regiment: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)
Secondary Unit Text: attd. 1st/6th Bn
Age: 33
Date of Death: 11/09/1917
Service No: 305234
Additional information: Son of Allan and Annie Anderson Masterton; husband of Wilhelmina M. Masterton, of 27, Clepington St., Dundee.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: II. A. 12.
Cemetery: GWALIA CEMETERY

Name: MASTERTON, GEORGE ELLIS
Initials: G E
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Army Cyclist Corps
Unit Text: 3rd/1st Highland Cyclist Bn.
Age: 18
Date of Death: 15/05/1916
Service No: 704
Additional information: Son of Mr. and Mrs. Allan Masterton, of Midmill, Dundee.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Div. 19. BB. 2.
Cemetery: STE. MARIE CEMETERY, LE HAVRE

Name: McLAREN
Initials: G
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)
Unit Text: 1st/7th Bn.
Age: 27
Date of Death: 13/11/1916
Service No: 6889
Additional information: Son of Joseph McLaren; husband of Mary A. McLaren of 83, Liff Rd., Lochee, Dundee.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Sp. Mem. D. 8.
Cemetery: Y RAVINE CEMETERY, BEAUMONT-HAMEL

Name: McGILL, DAVID
Initials: D
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Scots Guards
Unit Text: 2nd Bn.
Date of Death: 16/05/1915
Service No: 11154
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 3 and 4.
Memorial: LE TOURET MEMORIAL

McLeod, Donald

McLeod, Dav

Nicoll, ? T

Name: NIXON, ALEXANDER
Initials: A
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)
Unit Text: 6th Bn.
Age: 27
Date of Death: 10/04/1918
Service No: S/43404
Additional information: Son of the late William Nixon.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 78 to 83.
Memorial: LOOS MEMORIAL

Name: ROBERTSON, WILLIAM
Initials: W
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)
Unit Text: 4th/5th Bn.
Date of Death: 31/07/1917
Service No: 200860
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 37.
Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

Name: STEWART
Initials: W
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)
Date of Death: 09/08/1917
Service No: 7771
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: L. North-East. 28.
Cemetery: CROMARTY CEMETERY

Name: SUTHERLAND, WILLIAM McLEAN
Initials: W M
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)
Unit Text: 2nd Bn.
Age: 34
Date of Death: 11/05/1915
Service No: 3/3505
Additional information: Son of Mary Sutherland, and the late John Sutherland; husband of Jessie McMillan Sutherland, of 23, Princes St., Ayr. Native of Midmill, Dundee.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: I. A. 111.
Cemetery: CHOCQUES MILITARY CEMETERY

Name: SWAN
Initials: J
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Serjeant
Regiment/Service: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)
Unit Text: 1st Bn.
Date of Death: 10/05/1915
Service No: 9291
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: I. A. 93.
Cemetery: CHOCQUES MILITARY CEMETERY

Whiteside, John

Glen, ?

spoons · Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:39 pm Post subject:

I am guessing that the online Dundee ROH might help confirm the names, unfortunately not enough time for me to check myself.

http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?t=4326

\Paul

Ian Robertson · Joined: 20 Apr 2009 Posts: 24 Location: Broughty Ferry

I have had responses from 3 of the four councilors that I wrote to yesterday. Iam not impressed. The gist of their responses are that they are as shocked at me and they have contacted the person/department responsible to find out what their plans for the memorial are. If the person responsible had been anyway capable I wouldn't have needed to contact them in the first place. The fourth councilor and the head of department that I wrote to have not responded. I will be following these responses up.
The members of the Tay Valley group received an e-mail from Bob Paterson, the chairman of the local WFA branch, saying taht he had written to letford and that BBC Scotland and Radio Tay had been touch with him and that the "Courier" will be running the story again. Bob rightly points out that the pressure needs to be kept up and nothing has been achieved yet despite the encouraging publicity.

regards

Ian

David McNay · Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:44 am Post subject:

We definitely need to maintain pressure on the council and those responsible.

I think the next logical step would be some kind of semi-formal group, perhaps a trust? Something that could be organised more formally and could both presure the council and also raise awareness (and possibly funding for restoration, relocation etc) with local groups and businesses?

I unfortunately don't live in the Dundee area but I would be willing to help in whatever capacity I could.

Myself and Adam are attending a family history fair/conference on Saturday as The Scottish Military Research Group - we will be highlighting this memorial in our display.

Ian Robertson · Joined: 20 Apr 2009 Posts: 24 Location: Broughty Ferry

Today's "Courier" report
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2009/04/22/newsstory12998747t0.asp

regards

Ian

George Armstrong Custer · Joined: 09 Jan 2007 Posts: 29

Excellent Ian. These people must, if need be, hounded until their words become actions. Otherwise it will be the same stunt as Provost Letford pulled in 2005 - platitudes in the paper and no action.

If the council are saying that elements of the 'porous sandstone' is beyond repair then this must not be allowed to be used as an excuse for doing nothing. If need be experts need to be brought in with a view to making replacement parts of the monument's architecture from matching stone. And then the whole thing need to be re-erected and rededicated in a less vulnerable location - perhaps the courtyard of Mains Castle, to keep it safely in the Parish of the fallen men whom it commemorates.

Am away till Friday.

Best,

George

Murray · Joined: 21 Jan 2008 Posts: 64

Here is the Courier article that Ian supplied a link to. I have produced it in full as links can vanish or become broken.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Memorial needs work of experts

By Brian Allison, local government reporter

EXPERT ADVICE on cleaning and restoring a vandalised war memorial in Caird Park is to be sought by the city council.

The memorial, to Black Watch soldiers who died in the first world war, has been covered in graffiti and damaged by vandals.

Leisure and communities convener Bob Duncan, whose committee has responsibility for parks, deplored the vandalism and said the council would be investigating how best to restore the memorial.

Former soldiers and members of The Black Watch Association have condemned the defacement of the memorial, a sandstone fountain put up in 1922 and bearing the names of servicemen from the Mains Parish.

Photographs of the memorial posted on a Scottish war memorials website provoked an outcry from ex-soldiers all over the country.

Mr Duncan said the fact that the memorial is made of sandstone, a porous and relatively fragile material, meant cleaning up and preserving it after almost 90 years of exposure to the elements and the recent vandalism would be a difficult process.

“Sandstone, while an attractive rock, soaks up the inks and paints that have been daubed on it,” he said. “There is no way that it can be pressure washed or have any harsh chemicals used on it as the memorial is now comparatively delicate.”

Mr Duncan said the vandalism seemed to indicate that the community spirit which led people to set up the memorial no longer existed.

“I understand and completely support the condemnation of these vandals by former soldiers and the various bodies dedicated to ensuring that the sacrifices of the 25 men named on the fountain are never forgotten by this or any other generation,” he said.

“But I fear that due to a combination of circumstances, not least of which was the choice of material when the memorial was first commissioned, we may have to employ some radical thinking to the future of the Caird Park fountain.”

Strathmartine ward councillor Kevin Keenan, whose area covers the memorial, said its condition was a disgrace and called on the council to clean it up.

He said he had been contacted by one of his constituents, Mr Ian Robertson, who is outraged by the deplorable condition of the memorial.

“This memorial…has been subject to vandalism and a lack of care and maintenance over a period of years and is now rapidly approaching the point where urgent action is required,” Mr Robertson said.

“Not only is there now a need to undertake the restoration there remains a requirement for its relocation, perhaps to the vicinity of Mains Castle, to prevent any future abuse.”

Mr Keenan said the war memorial was a disgrace. “No one would want to lay a wreath at this memorial, given it is covered in graffiti,” he said. “I have called on the chief executive to get this cleaned up as soon as possible to show respect for our war heroes.”

Source: Dundee Courier

Murray · Joined: 21 Jan 2008 Posts: 64

Just one small point.

I don't think this is just a Black Watch Memorial as the media are portraying.

It is a Memorial to the Men of the Parish of Mains who fell in the Great War.

Adam Brown · Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:15 am Post subject:

Murray

From Paul's research above it looks like most are from the Black Watch but yes it is the civic war memorial for Mains and not just a memorial to local Black Watch men.

Bob Duncan from the Council is quoted as saying radical action may be needed but looking at the photographs again (I haven't been to the memorial so I am basing this on the photographs on the forum) I think the main structure of the memorial still looks quite sound and could probably be cleaned up and repaired. The problem is really with the panels which have inscriptions.

For a solution the council may look to some of our coastal towns who have had a similar problem with the names being eroded over time (due to nature rather than bored teenagers though). In these cases instead of replacing the sandstone with new sandstone which will erode again they have opted for granite. It seems from other memorials on this forum that anything else less hard-wearing for a war memorial is false economy.

Adam

David McNay · Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:25 am Post subject:

There are definitely workeable solutions to the sandstone issue and I think the council should look at every alternative.

Ian Robertson · Joined: 20 Apr 2009 Posts: 24 Location: Broughty Ferry

I have written to councilor Keenan today thanking him for his involvement so far. I have pointed out that the repair alone is not enough without the memorial's relocation and that the difficulty or cost of the work should not be used as an excuse. I have asked him to maintain the pressure on the individuals concerned.

regards

Ian

David McNay · Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:35 am Post subject:

In terms of keeping this in the public eye, and possibly getting it more exposure, has anyone thought of contacting The Sun newspaper? They regularly run stories about the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, and they're run articles on the subject of damaged and vandalised memorials before - this might be right up their street.

It's another avenue to consider.

EDIT: I have just emailed The Sun and The Daily Record, let's see if that leads to anything.

dhubthaigh · Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:57 am Post subject:

THE PEOPLES JOURNAL: 27.05.1922

DEN O’ MAINS MEMORIAL UNVEILED

A PICTURESQUE EMBLEM

In a picturesque setting of rural charm, the war memorial erected in the Den O’Mains to the memory of 25 men who made the supreme sacrifice in the Great War was unveiled by Col. J. B. Muir, D.S.O., Black Watch, on Saturday afternoon.
The memorial, which is in the form of a fountain, has four pillars, modelled on the Corinthian style, and is situated near the remains of the historic Castle of Mains. The monument, which was built by Messrs Adam Wills, Dundee, is made of Camperdown stone, and bears the inscription on one side “Erected in memory of the men of Mains parish who made the supreme sacrifice, 1914-1918”, and on the other side the names of the fallen are engraved. Mr A. F. Durkie was the architect.
Rev. Alex. Anderson, Mains and Strathmartine, dedicated the memorial, after which Mrs M’Lachlan, Mains of Fintry, turned on the water.
Mr A. F. Durkie, in handing over the memorial to the custody of Dundee Town Council, in name of the parish of Mains, said the council was accepting a great responsibility when they took over it in perpetuity.
Baillie Gillies accepted custody on behalf of both the Lord Provost and Town Council. The people of Mains had to be congratulated in the fact they had combined the memorial with an article of public utility.
Rev. A. W. Fergusson, St. Mary’s, Dundee, also took part in the ceremony.
The names of the fallen are:- JAMES BARRIE, ANDREW BEATTIE, DAVID T. CARRIE, ROBERT CAMERON, GORDON COOK, WILLIAM CLARK, WILLIAM CUTHILL, WILLIAM G. DEAR, WILLIAM FERGUSON, JAMES JACK, DAVID KIDD, H. LOW, WILLIAM MASTERTON, GEORGE S. MASTERTON, GEORGE M’LAREN, DAVID M’GILL, DONALD M’LEOD, WILLIAM M’LEOD, G. T. NICOLL, ALEXANDER NIXON, WILLIAM ROBERTSON, WILLIAM STEWART, WILLIAM SUTHERLAND, JOHN SWAN, JOHN WHITESIDE.

Note:
The name G. Glen must have been a later addition.

David McNay · Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:10 pm Post subject:

That's an excellent article Mark. Good to see there's a record of the names as well.

That means that should there be some kind of replacement the names will survive.

I was thinking about this memorial, and I discussed this with Adam: it's not the typical Scottish memorial, in fact I've not seen one in this style before. Quite simply if this was in any kind of satisfactory condition I would consider it a particularly noteworthy and attractive memorial.

Fully restored, including restoring the fountain workings as well, this could be a very attractive memorial.

Unfortunately the council have shirked the responsibility they accepted at the time of the unveiling. They need to face up to that responsibility now and take action. It should not have come to this, but hopefully now they will resolve to restore and safeguard this memorial (and the names placed on it) for future generations.

David McNay · Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:15 pm Post subject:

Email sent this afternoon to the City of Dundee branch of the Royal British Legion. I'm not sure if they were aware of this matter, but they are now.