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robbie
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Posts: 31 Location: West Norway
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Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:42 pm Post subject: End date of WW1? |
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I know this question will likely make me look silly, but:
The 1st world War was 1914 - 1918, which is reflected in the inscriptions on some memorials. But a lot of memorials state 1914 - 1919.
Is this to do with the fact that the peace treaty wasn't signed until 1919, or am I missing a point?
_________________ Robbie @ Shetlopedia.com |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire
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Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:59 pm Post subject: 1914-1919 |
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Robbie
The reason for 1914-1919, is as you suggest, due to the war being officially ended by The Treaty of Versailles of 28 June 1919. The event of 11th November 1918 was only an armistice, or cessation of hostilities, and there was a fear the conflict might start up again. _________________ Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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robbie
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Posts: 31 Location: West Norway
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Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Jim,
Must admit I'm a bit thick on the international points of the wars, as I've just been interested in local facts.
Lord forbid anybody ever declares war on me, as I'd likely not understand it.. _________________ Robbie @ Shetlopedia.com |
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Roxy Moderator - Morayshire
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 510 Location: Elgin, Moray
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Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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Further to the above, the British was also involved in fighting in Russia in 1919; perhaps it was easier for the relatives to consider this as a continuation of the War?
Roxy _________________ Remembering my ggf, Pte Thomas Roberts, 10 SR, killed 25 Sep 15 at Loos.
Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan. |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire
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Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:33 pm Post subject: 1914-1919 |
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Quote: | ...perhaps it was easier for the relatives to consider this as a continuation of the War? |
Roxy
This was not a continuation of the war. Russia's involvement with the 1st World War ended when they signed a peace treaty with Germany in March 1918.
The fighting in Russia involving British forces, which I think you may be referring to, occurred due to them " assisting " in the Russian Civil War.
War memorials will have been in place with the 1914-1919 dates on before, and during, these operation in Russia late in 1919. _________________ Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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Roxy Moderator - Morayshire
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 510 Location: Elgin, Moray
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Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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Are you saying that Servicemen killed in Russia are not commemorated by CWGC? Nor on Great War Memorials?
I thought that they were.
Roxy _________________ Remembering my ggf, Pte Thomas Roberts, 10 SR, killed 25 Sep 15 at Loos.
Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan. |
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dhubthaigh Our first ever 1000-poster
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 5071 Location: Blairgowrie, Perthshire
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Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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Peter Richardson is listed on the Blairgowrie & Rattray War Memorial:
Surname RICHARDSON
Firstname Peter Welsh
Service number 129843
Date of death 10/08/1919
Decoration
Place of birth Blairgowrie
Other 46th Bn. formerly S/28151 Seaforth Highlanders.
SNWM roll SCOTTISH CASUALTIES EXTRACTED FROM ENGLISH REGIMENTS
Rank Pte
Theatre of death Russia
BLAIRGOWRIE ADVERTISER: 23.08.19
Peace has been signed and rejoiced over, but the sorrows of War still come to Scottish homes. This week news was received of the death of a promising Blairgowrie boy who was serving with the British Expeditionary Force in North Russia. On Thursday Mrs Richardson, William Street, had official intimation that her youngest son, Peter, had been killed on the 10th inst. during the fighting against the Bolsheviks.
The deceased soldier, who was only 19, was a private in the Royal Fusiliers, to which he was lately transferred from the Seaforth Highlanders. He joined the Army some little time before the armistice and he was sent to Russia in the Spring of this year. Pte. Richardson, who was an apprentice grocer with Messrs. J & A Reid before enlisting, was a bright and most likeable boy and his untimely death in faraway Russia is a great blow to his many friends.
The sympathy of the community has gone out to Mrs Richardson in this, her second, bereavement owing to the War. Another son, James, who was in the Seaforths, was killed in 1917 after highly distinguishing himself by winning the Military Medal and Bar.
Five of Mrs Richardson’s sons have served with the Forces during the War. |
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KevinStoke .
Joined: 09 Jan 2007 Posts: 175
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Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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Soldier, sailors, etc are listed on the CWGC site because they died within the CWGC date in 1921. The reason some may be missed off civic war memorials is because of the date some memorials were built therefore they died after the council etc had reached their cut off date for names
K |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire
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Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:23 am Post subject: 1914-1919 |
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Quote: | Are you saying that Servicemen killed in Russia are not commemorated by CWGC? Nor on Great War Memorials? |
Roxy
I said neither, none of this is detailed in my post. If you read the thread you will find you are the first persion to mention CWGC. There were no links between local war memorials and CWGC since majority of our war memorials were erected long before the CWGC registers were complete. The inclusion of names on war memorials followed the criteria used by the specific War Memorial Committee.
As a matter of interest the CWGC cut of date for WW1 is 31st August 1921. From memory that was the date that the war was officialy ended by an announcement in Parliament.
Paul
Clearly Pte Richardson died before this date and is therefor included on the CWGC Roll. As already stated he was not, in fact, a casualty of WW1 which ended on 28 June 1919.
A similar delay took place after WW2 when the CWGC cut off date was 31st December 1947. _________________ Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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Adam Brown Curator
Joined: 14 Dec 2006 Posts: 7312 Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)
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Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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dhubthaigh wrote: | Peter Richardson
SNWM roll SCOTTISH CASUALTIES EXTRACTED FROM ENGLISH |
Mark
I'm surprised to see him on the SNWM World War One database. I didn't think it covered casualties for this period. I see it lists all these men under the First World War link for this date in August 1919.
ADAM Gerald Wallace 10/08/1919 SCOTTISH CASUALTIES EXTRACTED FROM ENGLISH REGIMENTS 2nd Lt
BELL John 129796 10/08/1919 SCOTTISH CASUALTIES EXTRACTED FROM ENGLISH REGIMENTS Pte
CREE William 130197 10/08/1919 SCOTTISH CASUALTIES EXTRACTED FROM ENGLISH REGIMENTS Pte
LOGAN Robert 129594 10/08/1919 SCOTTISH CASUALTIES EXTRACTED FROM ENGLISH REGIMENTS Pte
MARTIN Charles 129617 10/08/1919 SCOTTISH CASUALTIES EXTRACTED FROM ENGLISH REGIMENTS Pte
MIDDLETON George Hilton 10/08/1919 ROYAL ARMY MEDICAL CORPS Unknown
McLACHLAN Thomas 130143 10/08/1919 SCOTTISH CASUALTIES EXTRACTED FROM ENGLISH REGIMENTS Pte
RICHARDSON Peter Welsh 129843 10/08/1919 SCOTTISH CASUALTIES EXTRACTED FROM ENGLISH REGIMENTS Pte
I haven't checked the others but I'm assuming they are all 46th Bn Royal Fusiliers except this man who also died in Russia.
MIDDLETON, GEORGE HILTON
Rank: Lieutenant
Regiment/Service: Royal Army Medical Corps
Secondary Regiment: Royal Field Artillery
Secondary Unit Text: formerly 2nd Lowland Bde.,
Age: 25
Date of Death: 10/08/1919
Additional information: Son of George Hodgson Middleton and Nannie Hester Middleton, of 38, Inverleith Place, Edinburgh. Also served in Egypt.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Memorial: ARCHANGEL MEMORIAL
I wonder if the SNWM covers other theatres after 11.11.18?
Interestingly this man
PRICE Frederick Joseph 1408 X. 10/08/1919 THE ROYAL NAVY Seaman
Was in the Newfoundland Royal Naval Reserve and is buried in Belgium. Why does SNWM commemorate him, how does he qualify for inclusion ?
Regards
Adam |
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spoons
Joined: 09 Jan 2007 Posts: 4991 Location: St John's Town of Dalry
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Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Adam Brown wrote: |
Interestingly this man
PRICE Frederick Joseph 1408 X. 10/08/1919 THE ROYAL NAVY Seaman
Was in the Newfoundland Royal Naval Reserve and is buried in Belgium. Why does SNWM commemorate him, how does he qualify for inclusion ?
Regards
Adam |
My understanding is that anyone who was serving in any of the Commonwealth Armed Forces and who died in the period will be included on CWGC. He may have been on leave visiting the battlefields and died of illness or a road traffic accident, that would give him a CWGC grave. Battlefield tours began almost immediately following the war and a Michelin guide to the battlefields was published in 1919. Wouldn't that then give him an entry on SNWM or did they have some tighter criteria?
\Paul |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire
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Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:58 pm Post subject: 1914-1919 |
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Mark
Apolgies for using the name Paul in my response. I was unable to change it on realising my mistake.
Adam
SNWM does not stop at 11th Nov 1918. To qualify for inclusion the casualty must have been:
"A member of the Armed Forces of the Crown or of the Merchant Navy who was either a Scotsman (i.e. born in Scotland or who had a Scottish born father or Mother) or served in a Scottish Regiment and was killed or died (except as a result of suicide) as a result of a wound, injury or disease sustained (a) in a theatre of operations for which a medal has been or is awarded; or (b) whilst on duty in aid of the Civil Power."
This is an updated version of the original text.
Quote: | PRICE Frederick Joseph 1408 X. 10/08/1919 THE ROYAL NAVY Seaman
Was in the Newfoundland Royal Naval Reserve and is buried in Belgium. Why does SNWM commemorate him, how does he qualify for inclusion ? |
He was involved in mine clearance and is probably correctly there because he was a Scotsman or had Scots born parents _________________ Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
www.kinnethmont.co.uk |
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kinnethmont
Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire
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Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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Adam
None of the others were in the 46th Royal Fusiliers, most were in the 45th. Both RF battalions were formed in April 1919 and disbanded in December that year.
The details of the others are below. They are recorded on the Archangel Memorial with the exceptions of Cree and Martin. They are buried at Yakovlevskoe but have Special Memorial headstones around the wall of Archangel Allied Cemetery.
10th August 1918 was the date of the battle of Troitsa (a town on the River Dvina south east of Archangel), fought against the Bolsheviks. The allies (UK, USA, France, Poland, Italy & White Russia) won the battle and soon after the non-Russian allied troops evacuated Archangel.
Paul
Your understanding of additions to the CWGC register is correct. As far as I know the Michelin guides were printed guidebooks for traveling round the old battlefields and had no linkage to the names appearing on the SNWM.
Name: ADAM, GERALD WALLACE
Initials: G W
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Second Lieutenant
Regiment/Service: Leicestershire Regiment
Secondary Regiment: Yorkshire Regiment
Secondary Unit Text: attd. 13th Bn.
Age: 20
Date of Death: 10/08/1919
Awards: Mentioned in Despatches
Additional information: Son of Mr. and Mrs. John Wallace Adam, of Heaton Moor, Stockport.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Memorial: ARCHANGEL MEMORIAL
Name: BELL
Initials: J
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Royal Fusiliers
Unit Text: 45th Bn.
Age: 39
Date of Death: 10/08/1919
Service No: 129796
Additional information: Son of Mary Simpson, of 59, St. Leonard's Hill, Edinburgh, and the late James Simpson.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Memorial: ARCHANGEL MEMORIAL
Name: CREE, WILLIAM
Initials: W
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Royal Fusiliers
Unit Text: 45th Bn.
Date of Death: 10/08/1919
Service No: 130197
Additional information: (buried Yakovlevskoe Chyd. Extn.).
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Sp. Mem. B26.
Cemetery: ARCHANGEL ALLIED CEMETERY
Name: LOGAN, ROBERT GIBSON
Initials: R G
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Royal Fusiliers
Unit Text: 45th Bn.
Age: 25
Date of Death: 10/08/1919
Service No: 129594
Additional information: Son of John and Grace Logan, of 19, Prince's Square, Strathbungo, Glasgow.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Memorial: ARCHANGEL MEMORIAL
Name: MARTIN, CHARLES
Initials: C
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Royal Fusiliers
Unit Text: 45th Bn.
Date of Death: 10/08/1919
Service No: 129617
Additional information: (buried Yakovlevskoe Chyd. Extn.).
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Sp. Mem. B96.
Cemetery: ARCHANGEL ALLIED CEMETERY
Name: McLACHLAN, THOMAS
Initials: T
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Royal Fusiliers
Unit Text: 45th Bn.
Date of Death: 10/08/1919
Service No: 130143
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Memorial: ARCHANGEL MEMORIAL _________________ Jim
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
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spoons
Joined: 09 Jan 2007 Posts: 4991 Location: St John's Town of Dalry
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Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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"As far as I know the Michelin guides were printed guidebooks for traveling round the old battlefields and had no linkage to the names appearing on the SNWM. "
Thanks, I understand that - I was just illustrating that battlefield tourism was well established in 1919 so it was entirely possible that servicemen were there other than on duty. Not in this case obviously.
\Paul |
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