The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project

robbie · Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Posts: 31 Location: West Norway

My tuppence worth is a simple statement which appears on so many memorials:
These Honoured Dead
If a name has been omitted for whatever reason, then surely that omission is a failure on the part of those who survived to honour the sacrifice made by the fallen.
_________________
Robbie @ Shetlopedia.com

Adam Brown · Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:16 pm Post subject: Re: BLAIRGOWRIE & RATTRAY

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

Adam

" Memorials everywhere " was meant to convey many more WW1 civic memorials than there are now. We know nearly every parish / community in the land has one. If some had their way most would need more panels than the existing memorials could ever accomodate.

Adam Brown · Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: Re: BLAIRGOWRIE & RATTRAY

I don't think we've an epidemic here. There's about 1400 civic war memorials and only a few have had additions and I think a lot of recent additions (last 20 years) have been for Post-45 fatalities.

I'd be interested to know exactly how many Great War names have been added in Scotland in that time. Also I don't know if anyone knows of requests being made but being turned down? I’d imagine there must have been some made.

Unless by some fluke the committee records have survived or if there work was reported in the local paper there's little chance of knowing what the criteria was for inclusion and why a name was or wasn't added at the time.

The people who made the original decisions are no longer here and they are not using the memorial. The people who are here now are using them and if people in 2008 think a wrong has to be righted and they have enough proof for their inclusion, and the council agrees then why not?

How many memorials have been moved since the 1920s? We’re going to be talking three figures.

These memorials have been moved from the location chosen by the committee / relatives. Memorials also get incorporated into new schemes or designs not approved by the committee / relatives. I think we've got to take the view that as far as a council is concerned memorials are not sacrosanct. Look at the gates at Blairgowrie or the bells at Galashiels. If a council has a request from the community it serves to change a memorial it will do what it thinks is right even if that goes against the wishes of the community and council eighty years ago.

If a local comes to a council and asks for their relative to be added then if they can justify it with proper research then the council will probably grant the request.

Adam

David McNay · Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:31 am Post subject: Re: BLAIRGOWRIE & RATTRAY

Adam Brown · Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: Re: BLAIRGOWRIE & RATTRAY

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

Adam

My comments were really linked to adding WW1 names which is where the discussion started. The post 1945 ones are not really a problem area, provided the crtieria is met.

There are some requests being made on the basis of the flimsiest of suspect evidence ie. place of birth in SDGW, etc. As you write earlier proper research which can be publically inspected and verified is required.

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

David McNay · Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:21 am Post subject:

Jim,

Some of the papers do relate to larger memorials. However, there are quite a number of papers relating to small village memorials. One example I can think of is Waterloo in Lanarkshire, which was, and still is, a very small village on the outskirts of Wishaw.

Waterloo is particularly interesting since it recently had a new memorial erected. The existing memorial is a "memorial hall" with a brass plaque inside. It was obviously felt that the village today needed something more conspicuous. No names were added to the new memorial, and it has the same details as the two plaques (one for each war) inside the hall.

EDIT: a quick search on the NAS catalogue reveals papers for the following:

Tayport
Holytown
New Stevenston
Galashiels
Maybole
Grangemouth
Dundee
Barrhill
Aberuthven
Leith
Hamilton
Kirkcaldy
Urquhart
Wellbank
Carnoustie
Galston
South Ronaldsay
Clackmannan
Lasswade
Peterhead
Waterloo

That's just the entries relating to "scottish charities" which I would assume would be some sort of paperwork relating to the memorials. There is a lot of material regarding Edinburgh Castle and the National War Memorial. There is also a lot of church memorials which I haven't listed.

Adam Brown · Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject:

To go back to an earlier post - sorry I probably confused matters by mentioning post-45 additions. My point there was not about criteria rather than the numbers. Not counting Iraq and Afghanistan, most recent additions have been for Korea and Cyprus rather than Great War.

Now that we’ve mentioned it though these are campaigns from fifty years ago so to a certain extent the same criteria should apply for new applications as for Great War names.

The NAS holdings look good. I was under the impression it was mostly from church archives but there is quite a mixed bag there from all over the country. Comparing the criteria and how the names were collected would be interesting reading.

[By the way - way off topic here but the NAS are going to start using photographs on visitors cards from next year]

Adam

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

dhubthaigh · Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject:

Some very interesting and thought provoking points have been made.

As David said "We feel the need to add these names because we believe they deserve to be remembered. At the very root of this discussion, we should remember that". I certainly think that nearly every contributor to the project has that at heart.

I think my stance is that if, now, a family member/descendant feels so strongly that their relative should be added to the memorial and provides a very good case then... okay.

I wouldn't like to see names just being pulled from SDGW etc and added (and what about Navy men, and those that fought with the Commonwealth Forces that may have originated from the town/district ?). I didn't want to see a bandwagon rolling but as people become more interested would this become the case?

I think that papers relating to the War Memorial in Alyth are at AK Bell Library, Perth and perhaps others from the area. That would be another item added to my list!

And how thorough were the committees / I have a man at Blairgowrie who is on the memorial and survived the war (John Robert Steven). I also believe there is one at Alyth (George Corbett) and a man at Crieff (John Walker) Shocked

This format reminds me what is excellent about the style - ability to discuss and throw thoughts and ideas around.

apanderson · Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:47 pm Post subject:

I have been following this thread with great interest . . . . . so many strong opinions!

Anyway, on Airdrie Civic Memorial there is a Matthew McDowall who, in theory shouldn't be there.

Matthew was found dead on Alexandra Parade, Dunoon and the cause of death was attributed to natural causes. He was a Blacksmith and his 'usual address' was Woodend Cottage, Airdrie. He is listed on a family stone in New Monkland cemetery along with his brother John (Pte., 5th Cameron Highlanders who died 25.09.1915) and the inscription states that Matthew "died from illness contracted while on active service 16th July 1919 aged 28 years". Matthew had served in The Royal Engineers

(The above information was supplied by an ancestor)

I doubt very much that anyone would want to have Matthew's name removed - or am I wrong?

Anne

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

Anne

I am unsure why you think some might want him removed.
Those who were aware of his particular circumstances, rightly or wrongly, accepted his death was on account of his war service. Had he died after the memorial was completed, things may have turned out differently.

Mathew McDowall had been medically discharged four months earlier and it seems likely this contributed to, and probably resulted in, his death. Of course the links between Trench Fever and the probable cause of his death are better known now, than in 1919.

The disapointing thing is that the death certificate did not make the connection to his service illness or give his occupation as late soldier.
That might have been enough to have him recognised by the authorities as a war related death today.
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk

spoons · Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:19 pm Post subject:

I certainly would not support just any name being added without a good reason but I can think of a few theoretical examples where I would support a late addition to (for example) a WW1 memorial. In practice we would be unlikely to ever know these details.

1. Name was omitted because the soldier was shot at dawn - I don't wish to bring my personal views on this into the issue so I will just say that recent changes by the government etc should be taken into account.

2. Name was omitted at the express request of parents or spouse. Assuming that these people are now dead, I think the name should be added to a civic memorial. If the only reason they are not on the memorial is the wishes of someone now dead then there is no reason that there name should not now be added so that the community can honour them as they originally wished.

3. A member of a VAD who died of illness (perhaps even contracted at the front). Sometimes they are listed on memorials and sometimes not but the role of women has changed so much since WW1 that there would probably be quite a strong public view to add them to the memorial (with benefit of hindsight).

It is true that there is a very wide variety of criteria that seem to have been used. One group of memorials seem only to contain those with CWGC graves (or listings) others are far more open, for example my local memorial for WW2 has a NAAFI lass who died from illness. My grandfather's name is on a memorial in Canada although he died in 1952 having never been to Canada! All his family (including widow) emigrated to Canada and they mentioned his WW1 service and the fact that he never fully recovered from a gas attack and that was enough for them to add his name (I am not suggesting that approach in Scotland of course).

I am not aware of any names being added to memorials in Dumfries and Galloway in recent times, although out of sequence inscriptions show circumstatially that these have been done at some time in the past.

To be honest, I have no real motivation for adding anyone's name to a memorial, or opposing such a thing, but I do think it important for this forum to record such additions and also the steps gone through to achieve it.

\Paul