The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project

Jack Alexander · Joined: 13 Mar 2007 Posts: 3 Location: Scotland

Please see this link to a current thread on the Heart of Midlothian 'Kickback' forum.

Anyone who is interested in helping to resist the proposal to sideline this world famous Edinburgh landmark is welcome to become involved.

http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/showthread.php?t=28549

DerekR · Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject:

I'm copying Jack's posting from the "Kickback" forum below.
Yet again it looks like the "jobsworths" are at it and I'm sure that this forums membership will oppose what is proposed.

On behalf of the MB Trust I have attended several meetings on the subject of the Heart of Midlothian War Memorial's place in the reorganisation of the Haymarket junction. Rightly or wrongly, I've consistently reported the impression that the Tramway people (whatever they might actually say) perceive the structure as something of a ‘nuisance’ that could usefully be relocated elsewhere.

Initially I believe that some officials were of the opinion that it had served its purpose and that (with the Great War is so far in the past) it could be safely ‘downgraded’ in terms of its visibility and physical prominence. I took an opposing position and defended it as vigorously as diplomacy and politeness would allow.

For our most recent meeting (2 September) suspecting that something might be afoot, I invited Alan Owenson (secretary of the MB Trust) to accompany me. As a career civil servant, Alan is particularly well-versed in the workings of public bodies.

Before this meeting we were left with one (almost) concrete proposal. As part of the redevelopment of Haymarket Station and its surrounding pedestrian concourses, the Memorial would be placed on the paved area in front of Ryrie’s public house. This seemed like an excellent solution, allowing the tower to remain ‘at home’ in its traditional architectural context, beside the landmark buildings which have always formed its backdrop.

On 2 September, however, we were taken aback to learn that the Council officials had an alternative suggestion – confirming, I think, the fears that I had harboured since the start of these ‘consultations’. We were handed a document entitled ‘Hearts Memorial Clock’, which envisages the permanent removal of the memorial to a site (an alien environment, if you will) in Atholl Crescent. This idea was dressed up in some rather ill-conceived promises of new space, to ‘tell the story’ and to hold the annual ceremony of Remembrance (which they persistently described as a ‘celebration’ – much to Alan’s annoyance).

In fact this proposal would sideline the clocktower to a meaningless location in which its aforementioned prominence and visibility would be dramatically compromised. My response, supported by Alan, was that the Memorial is an historic Edinburgh landmark, set in an important historic physical context, and that it was placed in the junction by its creators to be seen. I added that if, after the Tramway has been laid, it can return to the junction, the McCrae’s Trust would wish to see it do so. Relocation to any other site is unacceptable. We expressed the hope that the Football Club and its supporter organisations would share this view.

The important point here was made by the Council officials. They conceded (under questioning) that it could, indeed, be returned to a position on the traffic island “one metre away” from its present position. But (importantly) that they would rather not put it there! They repeated this three times.

In spite of their insistence that they were opening a ‘consultation process’ we were left with a strong impression that they have already made up their minds.

Note that in addition to the possibility of returning the clocktower to the traffic island, there still remains the ‘second’ Haymarket option. Funding for the station redevelopment has yet to be confirmed by the Government. When this goes through, they explained that there will be sufficient funds to relocate the Memorial to the Council’s originally suggested site, in front of Ryrie’s. It occurred to me that the Football Club and its supporter bodies might look into the costing of this proposal with a view to calling the Council’s bluff by raising funds to pay for the landscaping themselves. In any case I think the fate of the Heart of Midlothian Memorial is too important to be tied into a project as large as the station plan. The two should not be linked.

In summary, we appear to have something of a battle on our hands. The officials' grasp of the significance of the clocktower is worrying. Notwithstanding repeated use of the word ‘celebration’, their insistence that in Atholl Crescent the Memorial would form part of the start of a new city-wide “statue heritage trail” was ill-judged.

I pointed out (with Alan’s support) that the other monuments in the Council’s list merely commemorated the lifework of individuals. The Heart of Midlothian War Memorial commemorates two five-year events of such historic and emotional enormity that the idea of uprooting the structure from its ninety-six-year-old home is verging on the sacrilegious.

In February 2009 the clocktower will be removed to allow tramway work to be carried out in the junction. This is unavoidable. Assuming that we can resist the Atholl Crescent proposal, the tower (we are told) must remain in storage until March 2011 (at the earliest). I’m not sure that we should be taking the officials' word on these timings, by the way. At any rate, this means that we will ‘lose’ two memorial services – 2009 and 2010. The Council's suggestion is that a temporary stone be placed (in Atholl Crescent, of course!) as a focus for these two Remembrance Sundays. They admitted that there was no budget available for this, but supplied mock-up photographs, none the less.

For the life of me, I can’t see what Atholl Crescent has to do with anything at all. I would suggest that on those two Sundays the Club has a number of more appropriate alternatives – which might include a service in Grosvenor Street, a service in the Lawnmarket (at the Heart of Midlothian) or a service at Tynecastle.

I know that we have to be seen to work with the Council, but it would appear that some junior planner with no knowledge of the history and no appreciation of the facts has dredged up Atholl Crescent as an afterthought.

For what it's worth, I think we owe it to the men and women who built the memorial to show a bit of pride in the sacrifice of their generation. We should hold the temporary services on a spot that we think is fit and of which they would approve. Messrs McCartney and McCrae (if they were here) would pick up the baton and tell the Council where the services should be held – not meekly surrender to official opinion. That point, I have no doubt, will be well discussed over the coming months!
_________________

Time but th' impression stronger makes, As streams their channels deeper wear.

David McNay · Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject:

Nice to see you here Jack.

I think I speak for everyone here that we'd be more than willing to help in whatever capacity we can. Please keep us informed of developments.

David McNay · Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject:

I've posted about this on the Great War Forum, I think it's an issue they will want to know about.

Adam Brown · Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:19 am Post subject:

The Edinburgh City Council has been trying for many years to put a tram system in place in Edinburgh. Now that it is finally going ahead with Scottish Government funding the Council are determined to push it through.

What this means is that T.I.E. the company set up by the Council to manage their transport infrastructure pretty much have carte blanche from the Council to do whatever it takes to get the trams built on time and within budget. (Both highly unlikely).

TIE now has a history of getting what they want. I would not be at all surprised if any ‘consultation’ over the memorial was PR and that the decision about the memorial’s future has already been decided.

This is not the only memorial / monument to be moved because of the tram works but crucially it is the only war memorial. The significance of Remembrance seems to be lost on TIE. In the ‘Festival City’ Remembrance is just one more date in the calendar to be marked by the Council without understanding the reasons behind it.

In the case of some monuments their final location within the city is not an issue. George IV from George Street can go anywhere. The same cannot be said for the HMFC memorial. The Conan Doyle ‘Sherlock Holmes’ Memorial needs to be near Picardy Place at Greenside, and I believe the Council have committed themselves to retaining The Doyle memorial and Eduardo Paolozzi’s ‘Monte Cassino’ in the Greenside ‘Triangle’.

Like Greenside, Haymarket is a large open junction. Even with the trams there is no reason for this memorial to be moved along the street.

This decision to move the memorial away from Haymarket needs to be stopped. There is hope though. TIE was involved in an embarrassing climb down two years ago when they failed miserably to implement a road scheme in the city centre. All pleas from taxi drivers, delivery men and common folk were ignored but when the great and the good of the New Town including councillors were affected the changes were miraculously reversed overnight.

Regards

Adam

Adam Brown · Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:17 am Post subject:

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

The memorial should not be moved, particularly if they left from Haymarket. The earlier move was in 1971-1972.

I see it is Listed (1993), but only a C listing, which means the Council has authority to make change.
I would get on to Historic Scotland to see if it can be reconsidered for Listing as A or B. This would take the decision out of their hands alone and Historic Scotland / Scottish Ministers would have to be involved.
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk

Jack Alexander · Joined: 13 Mar 2007 Posts: 3 Location: Scotland

spoons · Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject:

sorry but my experience is in losing battles with planners Embarassed

You have my full support though of course.

The councillors at the time, who perhaps even knew some of the men, decided this was the best place to put the memorial. What makes today's councillors think they know better? I am all in favour of progress but I have never heard the view expressed that we have seen enough of this memorial, let's have it moved to a less dominant position. I am a pragmatic kind of guy, if it needs to be moved, so be it, but at least have the new position meeting the spirit of the original location as far as is possible.

Although I am from south of the border myself, my other half is a Hearts supporter from Edinburgh and her whole family want it left where it is (or as close as possible).

\Paul

john burnett · Joined: 29 Jan 2007 Posts: 790 Location: Fife

What do the following say of proposals?
- local Cllrs, MP, MSP
- local community council
- Cockburn Association

Could start an online petition for Scottish Parliament after all Salmond is Hearts supporter.
Though I agree with comment it is not just a Hearts matter.
We Will Remember Them - but only in some out of the way place!

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

The best bet, in the first instance, would be to try to get the memorial looked at again by Historic Scotland to see if it can have it's Listing revised. Their HQ is in Edinburgh and they will know who actually owns it, although I assume it was the Corporation when it was listed in 1992.

There are plenty war memorials being considered for Listing ( albeit late in the day since they were erected ) which are being graded B. Someone writes there are lots of B Listed properties nearby so it does not seem unreasonable that this historic construction be B Listed as well.
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk

David McNay · Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:08 pm Post subject:

Please feel free to sign the petition which has now been set up:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/HWMAG1916/index.html

kinnethmont · Joined: 19 Dec 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Aberdeenshire

I have just watched a piece on the moving of the memorial on BBC Reporting Scotland. A member of the Scots Guards Club across the road was adamant it would have to be returned to it's current site. A Council member was on and advised there was no truth in the rumour that it is to be moved permanently and that " nothing has been decided ".
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk

Adam Brown

DerekR