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JOHN RAE



Joined: 26 Aug 2008
Posts: 17
Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:28 pm    Post subject: Pte Boyle Reply with quote

Hello Anne,
Again I say "Well Done"
Beginners luck, plus excellent research on your part is the answer.
Would his remains actually be buried here in Glasgow, or just his belongings.?
He must have been killed in Europe somewhere.
Until the next time,
Many Thanks,

John
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apanderson
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Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2571
Location: Stirlingshire

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John,

He is buried in the West Nec and shares the grave with the other 4 men listed on the stone.

See: http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=666092

Name: BOYLE
Initials: J
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)
Unit Text: Depot
Date of Death: 18/04/1917
Service No: B/6907
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: P. 2371.
Cemetery: GLASGOW WESTERN NECROPOLIS

Anne
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Adam Brown
Curator


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7353
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Pte Boyle Reply with quote

JOHN RAE wrote:
Would his remains actually be buried here in Glasgow, or just his belongings.? He must have been killed in Europe somewhere.


John

If the CWGC record his burial in Glasgow then he will have died somewhere in the UK for him to be buried in the Western Necropolis. A few men killed in France in 1914 and early 1915 had their bodies repatriated privately but that practice was stopped in 1915. If he died in Europe in 1917 he would have been buried in Europe.

I see his unit is the Depot, Cameronians. That suggest to me that he was based in the UK (Hamilton?) and died of wounds or from the effects of war service.

Regards

Adam
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1663
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems more likely that these men in shared graves died in one of the military hospitals in the Glasgow area as the death dates cover the entire war period. Those who died elsewhere in the UK generally had a lair each.
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk
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apanderson
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Joined: 21 Dec 2006
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Location: Stirlingshire

PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to SNWM he died in France?

Surname BOYLE
Firstname J
Service Number 6907
Date Death 18/04/1917
Other 1st Bn.
SNWM roll THE CAMERONIANS (SCOTTISH RIFLES)
Rank Pte
Theatre of death France.

His Medal Card which gives a 'Qualifying Date' as 02.05.1915?



So, does anyone who has a knowledge of how to read these things think that maybe the date of death on CWGC & SNWM is a bit wonky? Confused

Anne
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Adam Brown
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7353
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The qualifying date is the date he arrived in France. 2nd May 1915. A lot of men who had joined in August 1914 arrived in France around this time.

I think Jim has hit the nail on the head, he died in a Glasgow hospital. If possible it would be worth checking the Glasgow death registers for 18.04.1917 to find him.

Adam
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1663
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Boyle, age 32, Groundwork Labourer, Private 1st Battn, Scottish Rifles died at the Red Cross Hospital, Bellahouston on 18th April 1917.
His residence is given at 6 Burnside Lane, Hamilton.
The casuse of death is given as - Septic Pneumonia

It may be his death was a consequence of being gassed.

I suspect you will find that those others buried in similar multiple graves were also hospital burials. It may be the cemetery owners would not permit individual burials. CWGC were not responsible for the burials, only marking the graves in perpetuity.
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk


Last edited by kinnethmont on Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:17 pm; edited 2 times in total
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apanderson
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Joined: 21 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You beat me to it there James! Smile

I haven't got any credits left for SP but using the free search, there were the following 6 James Boyles all having 1917 as their year of death:

3 1917 BOYLE JAMES, M, 20, SERVICE AND WAR RETURNS /MINOR RECORDS 123/AF 0413, VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER
4 1917 BOYLE JAMES, M, 20, SERVICE AND WAR RETURNS /MINOR RECORDS 124/AF 0241, VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER
5 1917 BOYLE JAMES, M, 24, SERVICE AND WAR RETURNS /MINOR RECORDS 120/AF 0340, VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER
6 1917 BOYLE JAMES, M, 28, SERVICE AND WAR RETURNS /MINOR RECORDS 121/AF 0098, VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER
7 1917 BOYLE JAMES, M, 28, SERVICE AND WAR RETURNS /MINOR RECORDS 121/AF 0185, VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER
8 1917 BOYLE JAMES, M, 31, SERVICE AND WAR RETURNS /MINOR RECORDS 123/AF 0422, VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER

So . . . . . . which one from the above list is the correct one?

Anne
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apanderson
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Joined: 21 Dec 2006
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Location: Stirlingshire

PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re the multiple burials . . . .

I think the West Nec has more of these than I've ever seen anywhere else and they're spread all over the cemetery. When I posted these on the War Graves Project, I listed each man alphabetically to try and keep track of each of them, but it was fun and games at the time!

Anne
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1663
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anne

Probably none of them.

From memory the Minor Records only include the Service Returns of Overseas deaths. This would exclude a death in Glasgow ( Polockshields) where the D Cert was issued in the normal way.

There were six Jas Boyle's died in Glasgow in 1917. No. 2 is the correct and youngest man.

1 1917 BOYLE JAMES M 0 SCOTSTOUN AND YOKER GLASGOW CITY/LANARK
2 1917 BOYLE JAMES M 32 POLLOKSHIELDS GLASGOW CITY/LANARK
3 1917 BOYLE JAMES M 55 BLYTHSWOOD GLASGOW CITY/LANARK
4 1917 BOYLE JAMES M 57 HILLHEAD GLASGOW CITY/LANARK
5 1917 BOYLE JAMES M 60 BLYTHSWOOD GLASGOW CITY/LANARK
6 1917 BOYLE JAMES M 40 POSSILPARK GLASGOW CITY/LANARK
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk
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apanderson
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Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2571
Location: Stirlingshire

PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that info - I didn't know that.

SP credits don't last long - eh? Laughing

Anne
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JOHN RAE



Joined: 26 Aug 2008
Posts: 17
Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:34 pm    Post subject: Pte James Boyle Reply with quote

Hello everyone,
I thank you all for your well written posts. One noticeable point is, James's age is unknown. Surely James would have been attested by recruiting staff when he enrolled for military service. I am almost certain he would have enrolled at Hamilton. Another noticeable point is, the mens names as Anne has already pointed out are in alphabetical order no matter in what month they died. One would have thought thro' being injured and being repatriated back to Glasgow the authorities would have at least checked on his age.

You see, James had no family to fall back on. His only next of kin was his brother John Boyle, my grandfather, who lived in Hamilton.
Did he name my grandfather as his next of kin or not?. The absence of medals and paperwork might be proof that he didn't.

I recovered James's army no from an old crumbled and torn piece of what looked like brown tissue paper. I could just about make out the name in top right hand corner as being the address of - Infantry Records Office, of either no 2 or 8 Area, Hamilton. Another part, barely readable thro' being torn, showed Pte J Boyle, B/6907, Ist Scotti----------- that was it. I took it the regiment was the 1st Scottish Rifles.

Finding this old piece of crumbled and torn cheap army paper, has spurred me into trying to find the fateful destiny of my great uncle.

I look forward to the possibility of more excellent research posts from the site members.

Regards,

John.
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1663
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
One noticeable point is, James's age is unknown.


John

Some things do not tie up with your details

6907 J Boyle was 32 according to his D Cert. The informant of his death was his brother JOSEPH Boyle of Eastfield Terrace, Clydesdale Road, Mossend. I assume he knew his brother's age. This could well differ from his age on military records. He may have misled them.

He was residing at 6 Burnside Lane, Hamilton (family home?)

Do these adresses and brother Joseph meany anything to you?

Infantry Records Office at Hamilton would tie with the Cameronians.

You can get a copy of James Boyle's paybook will from the National Archives ref SC70/8/697/47
This will probably give you some more info.
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk
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JOHN RAE



Joined: 26 Aug 2008
Posts: 17
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:14 pm    Post subject: Pte James Boyle. Reply with quote

Hello Jas,
Many thanks for your interesting post.

I would state when I mentioned James's age was unknown I was referring to his CWGC records. Even as at todays date his CWGC record still shows his age as unknown. I will be honest by saying I didn't have a clue as to how old he was, and the CWGC record was all I had to work on.

My grandparents moved residence from Craigneuk to no 6, Burnside Lane, Hamilton, sometime between 1909 and 1914.
My first uncle Owen Boyle was born at no 6, Burnside Lane on 1st Aug 1914. He died very young.
My uncle Joseph Boyle was born at no 6, on 1st March 1917.
My uncle Owen Boyle was born at no 6, on 3rd July 1920.
James Boyle must have enlisted for the army at Hamilton, whilst he was living with my grandparents at no 6.

My grandparents then moved residence to 3, Morgan Street, Hamilton. I was born in their house at 3, Morgan Street, in 1935.
Interestingly, my own birth certificate, and the three certificates of my uncles mentioned above, were all signed by James Frame who was the Registrar for the Distict of Hamilton at that time.
Grandfather Boyle was born in 1876, and died aged 71 years at Fankerton, in Stirlingshire, in April, 1947. If James was aged 32 in 1917, this would make his dob 1885, considerably younger than my grandfather.
I was very close to the Boyle family and lived with several of them during my upbringing.
The mentioning of Joseph Boyle who lived at Mossend really surprised me. I never knew he had existed until reading about him in your post.
Before I check with National Archives, I am most certain James named my grandfather John Boyle, living at no 6, Burnside Lane, Hamilton, as his next of kin. I can't see any other reason for Infantry Records Office, No 2 Area, Hamil;ton, corresponding with him after James's death.
It is possible my grandfather instructed Joseph to register the death for him.

Best Regards,

John.
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1663
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John

Glad the details now make sense to you.

It may be that he named your grandfather as his next of kin. The Army would have these details as given by Pte Boyle when he enlisted and made changes to his NOK in his Service Record. Without the record it cannot be proved either way.
His will would confirm who he wanted to leave his effects to, that may not be the listed NOK.

Any family member could inform the death, his brother would be a nearer relative than your grandfather given his parents were deceased.

Whoever was the listed NOK is likey to be responsible for his age being missing from the CWGC record. You will note no NOK details are given in the record nor is his christian name given in full.
In the early 1920's the IWGC (later CWGC) will have contacted the listed NOK on several occasions regarding his place of burial and details for the Roll of Honour entry. A Final Verification form will have requested details to include in the entry. This has either not been returned by the relatives, or if it has, they have not requested changes to those given in the proposed record.
This is not unusual and happened for a great number of reasons. IWGC made all efforts to trace relatives but sometines this proved impossible. The details cannot be updated now.

Below is an example of another Boyle with more detail. The Additional information section details were among those supplied by the NOK. In this case they add that he enlisted in August 1914. Other common added details were - Native of **** or Born at ****.

Name: BOYLE, ARTHUR MACGREGOR
Initials: A M
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Acting Bombardier
Regiment/Service: Royal Field Artillery
Unit Text: "D" Bty. 78th Bde.
Age: 29
Date of Death: 11/02/1917
Service No: 812
Additional information: Son of George and Mary Boyle of 6, Dungoyne Gardens, Maryhill, Glasgow. Enlisted Aug., 1914.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: O. V. J. 5.
Cemetery: ST. SEVER CEMETERY EXTENSION, ROUEN

When he died the relatives will have had the option to have him buried near his home. They must have declined this offer and authorised he be buried with his comrades in the burying ground used by the Bellahouston Hospital.

I hope this assists
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk
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