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Shot at Dawn - various questions
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
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Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:59 pm    Post subject: Shot at Dawn - various questions Reply with quote

I found a spare three and a half minutes a day and decided to start looking into Scots who were 'Shot at Dawn'. A bit of a challenge this as it is a forbidden topic on GWF and some of the stuff found via Google is inaccurate or at least dubious. For very understandable reasons, most are not listed on war memorials and there are not many with personal details added to CWGC or SNWM.

Before I go too much further, is anyone aware of anything/anyone that I should be aware of? I have made a list of the names of 29 men who served in Scots Regiments and have various info on them from CWGC, SNWM and various sites found via Google. Anyone know of any Scots in other regiments? Any other sources? Anything been done already? I know about the book Shot at Dawn and the shotatdawn website.

I will be coming back to this thread to add various questions as they come up so please set 'watch this topic' (bottom of page) if you have an interest so you get any update mails.

Where will I put the info? Maybe a post on the forum, or something for the new society or just something on my own website (which needs to be rebuilt). To be decided.

Incidentally, there is a memorial to those Shot at Dawn in the National Arboretum at Alrewas. Should this be on the Forum?

\Paul
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David McNay
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Location: Lanarkshire, Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the book that lists al lthe Death Sentences passed during WW1. It has some notes for some of the entries. Flicking through it last night I came across a man from Scotland who had been shot while serving in the RGA. I'll bring it along when we meet up Paul, and you can have a look through it to see what you find.

I would also recommend the book "Blindfold and Alone" which is a little more impartial than others.

I should add at this point, with my Admin hat on, that this is not the place to discuss the rights and wrongs of this subject. This subject was banned on the Great War Forum due to the attitudes of some of the forum members there. I don't want to see the same thing happen here. I'm sure it won't, but consider this the first and only warning.
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David McNay
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little titbit of information for you. Doris Conroy, the niece of Private Charles Nicholson who was shot, lives in Glasgow.

She might not be too hard to track down, although she may be reluctant to discuss it. She was interviewed by the Scotland on Sunday in June 2006.
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
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Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks David for allowing me to use the forum for this subject. I completely agree in this subject being limited to historical facts and I have no interest in raising criticism of those who were executed, those involved in the trials or those involved in recent campaigns. There is enough biased stuff out there so I think I would like to keep this research to establishing the facts and dispelling the myths.

The first item I wish to address is that of the age of Joseph Byers RSF, executed on 06/02/1915. CWGC has his age as 17 but other sources quote him as being the youngest soldier to be executed with ages quoted as young as 16 although having given his age as 19 at enlistment. I hope to get to the bottom of this but it might need to wait until the 1911 census is released in 3 years time.

\Paul
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David McNay
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something that might be worth investigation - would Scottish soldiers shot at dawn be registered?

I've seen the lists of soldiers killed at New Register House - would these men be either included in those lists, or in a separate list? I'm assuming there would need to be some record of the death.

Worth looking into, I think.
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David McNay
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Byers age has been the subject of much debate and confusion it seems:

http://www.aftermathww1.com/byers.asp
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spoons



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David McNay wrote:
Byers age has been the subject of much debate and confusion it seems:

http://www.aftermathww1.com/byers.asp

seen that, that is why I think I might need to find him on the 1911 census (when available) and work backwards

\Paul
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Roxy
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Byers has no different a commemoration on CWGC than any other would have:

Name: BYERS, JOSEPH
Initials: J
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Royal Scots Fusiliers
Unit Text: 1st Bn.
Age: 17
Date of Death: 06/02/1915
Service No: 15576
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: I. A. 1.
Cemetery: LOKER CHURCHYARD

Loker Churchyard is in Belgium and holds the remains of 215 War Dead; all but 2 identified.

Roxy
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Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan.
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anne park
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:58 pm    Post subject: Locre Churchyard Reply with quote

3 shot at dawn 2 RSF Anne
ps Will do lookups from "2" Julian 's book
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Roxy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I concur with the Boss with regards to 'Blindfold and Alone': a good (impartial) read.

Roxy
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Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan.
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hector Dalande of the 8th Seaforths will be an interesting one. He was a French-Canadian who was shot for desertion. I believe at some point before deserting he had applied to join either the Canadian army or the French army but this was refused.

DALANDE, HECTOR
Initials: H
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Seaforth Highlanders
Unit Text: 8th Bn.
Date of Death: 09/03/1918
Service No: S/9696
Additional information: Husband of Jessie Henry (formerly Dalande), of 66, Big Vennel, Cromarty, Ross-shire.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: II. D. 1.
Cemetery: ST. NICOLAS BRITISH CEMETERY
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Stewartry



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spoons wrote:
David McNay wrote:
Byers age has been the subject of http://www.aftermathww1.com/byers.asp

seen that, that is why I think I might need to find him on the 1911 census (when available) and work backwards


Paul,

His will is held at the National Archives for Scotland, see the reference at the bottom of this page:
http://www.snwm.org/cgi-bin/db_w1.pl?function=view&id=148537

SC70/8/142/43: Will of 15576 Private Byers or Joseph Byers, alias Murray, 1st Bn., Royal Scots Fusiliers, Cause of death: Died, not given, Theatre: Unknown, 06 Feb 1915
Date of will: 28 Dec 1914

It should give you enough to go on to look for a match in the 1901 census.
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kinnethmont



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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:14 pm    Post subject: Joseph Byers Reply with quote

David

Byers is detailed in the records at NRH. His age is given as 19 and the Cause of Death is given as - Sentenced by GC Martial ( Desertion)
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DelBoy



Joined: 12 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spoons wrote:
The first item I wish to address is that of the age of Joseph Byers RSF, executed on 06/02/1915. CWGC has his age as 17 but other sources quote him as being the youngest soldier to be executed with ages quoted as young as 16 although having given his age as 19 at enlistment. I hope to get to the bottom of this but it might need to wait until the 1911 census is released in 3 years time.

\Paul


If he is scottish born you could check the birth indexes online at scotlandspeople. In fact you could view his birth cert!

I had a quick look at the indexes and there was only one joseph byars born between 1885 and 1901 in Scotland, and it was in 1901. It seems unlikely then, unless he was 14 when executed? hmmm.
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will get back to this research but it may not be until the autumn now.

In case anyone missed it, the GWF has had a change of policy and this is no longer a banned topic.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?s=dbee510f16527e61436ef299276fa25e&showtopic=100599

\Paul
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