The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project Forum Index The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project
(Registered Scottish Charity No. SC043826). Please visit our homepage at www.scottishmilitaryresearch.co.uk
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Some help required please

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project Forum Index -> Queries and Requests
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
apanderson
Administrator


Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2571
Location: Stirlingshire

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:58 pm    Post subject: Some help required please Reply with quote

A wee bit off topic but I hope you can help me out with the following . . . .

All these regiments are from Memorial Inscriptions on stones in either Holy Rude Churchyard or Marr Cemetery in Stirling, so I would imagine there might have a connection with Stirling Castle. Some of them are only numbers, e.g. 65th Regiment while others only have initials. The initials I presume to be regiments as the individuals are usually referred to by their rank with these initials following.

The following is a list I'm hoping to sort out - or in the least, establish what connection their regiments would have to Stirling or the full name of whatever regiment was what etc.

1. 72nd Highlanders
2. 79th Highlanders Major Alexander Forbes, died in Canada 30th March 1851 aged 58
3. 92nd Highlanders Sgt. John Stevenson, late 92nd, died 1th November 1893 aged 68
4. 93rd Highlanders Capt. Roderick E. B. Hamilton-Burgoyne, late 93rd, born Madeira 1837? died 1905?
5. Highland Borderers Adjutant Stephen Kenny, only date is when the stone was erected - 1867
6. Highland Borderers Light Infantry Militia Capt. Stephen Kenny, only date is when the stone was erected - 1867
7. K.C.B.
8. King's Own Lancaster Regiment Lt. Colonel George Wilson, D.S.O., died 1936 aged 67
9. King's Own Rifle Corps
10. North Carolina Highlanders Major Arthur Forbes, died 23rd April 1831 aged 78
11. 47th Regiment Surgeon Major Singleton, died before 1900
12. 65th Regiment Lt. Colonel Colin James Milnes, C.B., late of 65th died 26th October 1853 aged 78
13. 66th Regiment Lt. Colonel James Baird, late of 66th died 5th September 1848 aged 70
14. 77th Regiment Major Patrick Baird, late of 77th died 21st October 1842 aged 61
15. 47th Regiment of Foot Captain Patrick Forbes died at Panlang, Burma, 1st April 1825
16. 71st Regiment of Foot Lieut. Marcus Marr, died 4th September 1799 aged 27
17. Royal North British Fusiliers Major William H. Peddie, late 21st R.N.B.F., died 27th November 1871
18. 1st Royal Regiment of Foot Wife & daughter of Captain George Gibb 1803 & 1827
19. Stirling Militia Capt./Adjutant John Fraser, died 10th February 1853 aged 76
20. Stirlingshire Rifle Volunteers Capt. Thomas Turnbull (11th Coy.) died 30th Aprl 1877 aged 60 years
21. 45th Foot Sherwood Forresters Sgt. Maj. Norman Mason, H'land B. Lt. Inf. Mil., formerly Sgt. Maj. 45th Foot Sh. Forresters died 12th Sept. 1895
22. R.I.M. (Calcutta) Capt. John Vernon Falle? R.I.M. of Calcutta died before 1891

About half of these men would (I presume) have been retired as they are 'late of X regiment' The remainder, I don't know.

Anne


Last edited by apanderson on Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:40 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DerekR
Moderator


Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 3013
Location: Hawick, Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anne,

Stirling Castle contains the Museum of The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.

The 91st Argyllshire Highlanders were raised in 1794. They served in the South Africa Peninsula, Waterloo and India.
The 93rd Sutherland Highlanders were raised in 1799. They saw service in New Orleans, Crimea (including Balaklava, where they earned the nickname of the Thin Red Line) and during the Indian Mutiny, where they won seven Victoria Crosses.

In 1881 the two regiments amalgamated to form The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders (Princess Louise's). But why they are connected with Stirling Castle is unknown to me.
_________________

Time but th' impression stronger makes, As streams their channels deeper wear.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Adam Brown
Curator


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7312
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anne

I’ve more notes at home but I can post a few things just now. If you can give the dates of the inscriptions next to the regiments it may help to pin things down.

Before 1873 and the introduction of fixed regimental depots any British Army regiment might find itself based at Stirling or other parts of Scotland and recruiting in Stirling.

Between 1873 and 1881 Stirling was the depot for two regiments. I don’t have the info to hand but I think it may have been the 72nd and 91st Regiments.

After 1881 it was the home of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders

Regular Scottish Regiments

1st Royal Regiment of Foot. Later Royal Scots
Royal North British Fusiliers. Also 21st Foot. Later Royal Scots Fusiliers
71st Regiment Later 1st Bn Highland Light Infantry
72nd Highlanders. Later 1st Bn Seaforth Highlanders
79th Highlanders. Later 1st Bn Queen’s Own Cameron Highlanders
92nd Highlanders. Later 2nd Bn Gordon Highlanders
93rd Highlanders. Later 2nd Bn Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders

Militia

Highland Borderers / Highland Borderers Light Infantry Militia / Stirling Militia – The local Militia regiment in the nineteenth century. The Militia went through various transformations over the period 1815 – 1908 and was known by different names.

Volunteers

Stirlingshire Rifle Volunteers. Post 1859 Local volunteers. Early version of TA. Would have been based in Stirling.

Others

North Carolina Highlanders. Unit raised in Carolina by the British for service in American War of Independence. North Carolina had a large Scottish community. It wouldn’t have been in Stirling. (I think this is the unit that claims to have taken in part in the last traditional Highland Charge with broadswords).

RIM (Calcutta) RIM – Royal Indian Marine?

KCB Award rather than regiment? Knight Commander of the Bath

‘English’ Regiments based in Scotland in nineteenth century. The whole regiment may not have been in Stirling.

45th Foot Sherwood Forresters
47th Regiment / Regiment of Foot
65th Regiment
66th Regiment
77th Regiment
King's Own Lancaster Regiment
King's Own Rifle Corps

I'll try and find out which regiments were at the Depot in Stirling 1873 - 1881 later.

Adam
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
apanderson
Administrator


Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2571
Location: Stirlingshire

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Derek & Adam.

I've updated my original post with more details. I'm maybe getting carried away with myself thinking that there would be a connection to the Castle. For such small cemeteries it just seemed too much of a co-incidence that all these men from what I thought was a huge variety of regiments would all be buried (or mentioned on stones anyway).

One thing's for sure, anyone interested in 'military graveyarding' like yours truly can be guaranteed a great time!!

Anne
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Roxy
Moderator - Morayshire


Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 510
Location: Elgin, Moray

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anne,

One other thing to consider is that, on promotion from a regiment - normally to the rank of Col - an officer is late the xx reg.

regards,

Roxy
_________________
Remembering my ggf, Pte Thomas Roberts, 10 SR, killed 25 Sep 15 at Loos.
Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Adam Brown
Curator


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7312
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anne

Can you confirm the 72nd Regiment details. It may be their depot was at the castle at that time.

The following men were from units based in Stirling and would be living locally

5 & 6 The two Highland Borderers (HBLI Militia) men match the dates of this unit 1855 – 1881. It’s not the same man is it though? Capt and Adjutant Stephen Kenny.
21. Was a regular soldier attached to the local HBLI Militia.
20. Local volunteer unit. In 1871 the various volunteer companies raised in 1859-1860 were consolidated into the Stirling Rifle Volunteers but may well have been wearing their own uniforms. It mentions 11th Coy and I can look up Grierson’s Records of the Scottish Volunteer Force to see what it says about that unit.

These men were possibly based at Stirling

11. We’re depending on the date here. The 47th Foot was in Scotland during the Jacobite Rebellion 1745-46.

16 Some of the the 71st may have been at the castle in 1799. In 1798 the 71st returned to the UK after many years service in India and they would have been trying to recruit up to strength in Scotland.

All the rest

The rest are most likely people having a Stirling connection rather than the unit.

Cheers

Adam
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
apanderson
Administrator


Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2571
Location: Stirlingshire

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Roxy,

Thanks for mentioning that - glaringly obvious when someone points it out! Confused

I find all this stuff totally fascinating and always want to know the whole story - the wheres, whens, whys and hows!! I can't help myself! Smile

Anne
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
apanderson
Administrator


Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2571
Location: Stirlingshire

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry Adam! I don't know how I managed to miss the one right at the top of the list!

Lt. Colonel Charles Stewart Murray

His wife Ada died 12th March 1889 and the inscription says Lt. Colonel C.S. Murray, 72nd Highlanders, then at the time of his own death, 10 years later, 12th January 1899, says late 72nd Highlanders.

Anne
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Roxy
Moderator - Morayshire


Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 510
Location: Elgin, Moray

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anne,

This link:

http://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/lists/bargxrefn.htm

gives a numeric list of British Army regiments.

Roxy
_________________
Remembering my ggf, Pte Thomas Roberts, 10 SR, killed 25 Sep 15 at Loos.
Also remembering Flt Lt Al Squires and CXX/3 killed 2 Sep 06 in Afghanistan.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Adam Brown
Curator


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7312
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

apanderson wrote:
Lt. Colonel Charles Stewart Murray...late 72nd Highlanders


I’d say this means Lt. Col. Murray falls into being a local man rather than the regiment being connected to Stirling.

Going back to previous points.

No. 10 Major Forbes of the North Carolina Highlanders. The NCH was disbanded in 1783 after the War of Independence and Mjr Forbes would have been 30 years old at this point. It must have been a big part of his life if he was still addressing himself as a Major of this unit 58 years later.

Details of the unit from this website:

http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=British_Regiments%2C_Southern_Campaign%2C_American_Revolution

North Carolina Highlanders (Volunteers)
Raised in North Carolina, 1780, served in Carolinas until sent to New York in 1782. Disbanded in Canada in 1783.


My comment in a previous post about a highland charge referred to highland volunteers serving with the North Carolina Militia in 1776 and not this unit.

No. 15 The 47th Foot were on campaign in Burma in 1825.

No.22 I found this about the Royal Indian Marine

The Bombay Marine was the fighting navy of the East India Company in Asian waters, as opposed to its mercantile marine. In 1830 the Bombay Marine was renamed the Indian Navy. The Navy was abolished in 1863, being replaced by a revived, non-combatant, Bombay Marine. In 1877 the revived Bombay Marine and the Bengal Marine were combined to form HM Indian Marine, which became the Royal Indian Marine in 1892 and the Royal Indian Navy in 1935.

It was only formed in 1892 so RIM may stand for something else. Give the Calcutta reference though I’d suggest ‘I’ stands for Indian, and the Bengal Marine was based in Calcutta.

Adam
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
apanderson
Administrator


Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2571
Location: Stirlingshire

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Adam and Roxy for both links - I've been mulling over them for hours!

I can never seem to find comprehensive sites like these when I'm looking for them - they're both now bookmarked so I'll not pester everybody again.

Anne
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Adam Brown
Curator


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7312
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just following up on an earlier post.

Stirling was the Depot of the 72nd and 91st Highlanders between 1873 and 1881. It was called No.58 Sub-District and covered the counties of Argyll, Bute, Clackmannanshire, Dunbartonshire, Kinross-shire, Renfrewshire and Stirlingshire.

In 1881 the 91st amalgamated with the 93rd to form the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and retained the same recruiting area.

At the same time the 72nd amalgamated with the 78th to form the Seaforth Highlanders and their Depot was at Fort George.

It may be that Lt Col Murray's connection to Stirling was because of his Depot being in Stirling. Although the Depot was in Stirling throughout this period the 72nd was in India and Afghanistan.

It's probably worth mentioning a couple of other depots here.

In 1873 seventy sub-districts were formed. It had been worked out how big an area each sub-dsitrict would be to sustain two linked regiments.

No. 55 Sub-District was based at Fort George and covered the following counties.
Caithness, Inverness Moray, Nairn, Orkney & Shetland, Ross & Cromarty and Sutherland.

Between 1873 and 1881 it was the Depot of the 71st and 78th Highlanders.

In 1881 the 71st amalgamted with the 74th Highlanders to form the Highland Light Infantry based in Glasgow.
The 78th Highlanders stayed at Fort George and amalgamated with the 72nd Highlanders to form the Seaforth Highlanders.

In 1881 the counties of Inverness and Nairn became the recruiting area of the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders and Shetland moved into the recruiting area of the Gordon Highlanders because of its ferry links to Aberdeen.

This meant that neither the Seaforth Highlanders or Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders had a recruiting area that could fill it's ranks.
The QOCH particularly had to find most of its new recruits outside its recruiting area. In 1961 when the Seaforths and Camerons merged as the Queen's Own Highlanders they finally had a recruiting area which could sustain the regiment.

The Seaforth's Depot was suppoosed to move to Dingwall but new barracks were not built and they stayed at Fort George (within the recruiting area of the Cameron Highlanders)!

No.56 Sub District I'm pretty sure was at Aberdeen and was for the 92nd and 93rd Highlanders. In 1881 the 93rd moved to Stirling and the 75th joined with the 92nd to form the Gordon Highlanders.

No. 57 Sub-District was at Perth and covered Perthshire, Fife and Forfar.
Between 1873 and 1881 the 42nd Highlanders and 79th Highlanders shared the Depot.
In 1881 the 42nd Amalgamated with the 73rd Highlanders to form the Black Watch. the Depot was at Perth and they used the same recruiting area as No.57 sub District.

The 79th moved to Fort George until 1886 when it moved into Cameron Barracks in Inverness. It did not merge with another regiment and had to wait until 1897 to raise a second battalion.

Adam
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project Forum Index -> Queries and Requests All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group. Hosted by phpBB.BizHat.com