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Langholm
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:06 pm    Post subject: Joseph Graham Reply with quote

Adam

They appear to be the same man, but both records have errors.

He was Joseph D Graham SE/4272 R.A.V.C. who died on 30th August 1916. I suspect the date on the CWGC listing is a scanning error. This is being checked.

SNWM took details from SDGW.
SDGW have him born Langholm and enlisted at Galashiels. SNWM have repeated the wrong service number given by them SE/4278
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

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Adam Brown
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
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Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim

Many thanks for confirming it is the same man.

Regards

Adam
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:04 am    Post subject: Joseph Graham Reply with quote

Quote:
Many thanks for confirming it is the same man.


Adam

I have not done that but advised " They appear to be the same man ".

That remains the case as there are , as yet, unresolved issues. There could be two men.

The CWGC date ( 03/08/1916 ) is their original date. One Joseph Graham died in 1916, but on 30th August. His number was SE/4278.

Confusion all round. Will advise further.
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If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:46 pm    Post subject: Pte Joseph Graham, R.A.V.C. Reply with quote

Adam

I rather think they are the same man but it is not possible to be absolutely certain due to differing information from various sources. There could be two men.

CWGC have a Pte SE/4272 J Graham, Army Veterinary Corps died Egypt on 3rd August 1916. I have confirmed this is the date CWGC were given. No details were provided by his NOK.

SNWM have a Pte SE/4278 Joseph Graham, b Langholm died Egypt 30th August 1916.

SDGW have Pte SE/4278 Joseph Graham, b Langholm, e Galashiels, Royal Army Veterinary Corps died Egypt 30th August 1916.

Thus, we have a 2 x J Walker in the same unit, died in the same theatre but on different dates with different numbers.

An MIC for a Joseph D Walker shows he was Pte SE/4272 R.A.V.C. and the card has Died 30/8/1916 on it. He arrived in theatre 3 ( Egypt) on 16th March 1915.

Only one death of a Joseph Walker is recorded at GROS in 1916 and unfortunately the details do not resolve the mystery.
R.A.V.C. Pte SE/4278, age 31 born Scotland died 30th August 1916 in Egypt ( Appendix abcess).
Had the number been 4272 CWGC might have changed their record, but proof positive is required. In the circumstances they would leave them, as is.

I feel sure the GROS number is wrong because that R.A.V.C number was issued to a George A Buswell who served in France.

If you come across any family notification / medal paperwork, etc it could be looked at again
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If ye break faith with us who die
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Adam Brown
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
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Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim

Thanks for providing so much detail. In situations like this I will go with the GROS date of death. That matches the SNWM / SDGW details which tie that J Graham in with Langholm.

Hopefully in the future someone can find the details needed to confirm it is the same man or if there were two J Grahams.

I think there is more to say on this matter but I will start another thread in the Non-Commemoratons section.

Regards

Adam
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Stewartry



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 274
Location: nr Nottingham

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:23 am    Post subject: Pte Joseph Graham, R.A.V.C. Reply with quote

Re Joseph Graham

It may be worth emailing the reference department at the Ewart Library, Dumfries. The Dumfries & Galloway Standard is indexed, so a search for Graham, Joseph will show whether there was a report of his death or a death notice in August/September 1916 - either of these should sort out the date discrepancy.

Cheers,

Stuart
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Last edited by Stewartry on Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:39 am    Post subject: Pte Joseph Graham, R.A.V.C. Reply with quote

Adam

SNWM details should reflect those of SDGW since they used them to compile the SNWM registers, so that is really one source and not two. The key to the man's service is the number, unfortunately they do not tie up.

Stuart
An Obit or Dumfries & Galloway Standard report would not provide " proof positive " for CWGC to ammend their records which currently shows the details they were given in the 1920's.

Sadly, this is one of those cases that may never be clarified. Official paperwork, if it still exists, from the family would be the best way forward.
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If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

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Stewartry



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 274
Location: nr Nottingham

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:10 am    Post subject: Pte Joseph Graham, R.A.V.C. Reply with quote

Jim,

I wasn't intending the info to be used for submission to the CWGC, I am aware of its strict requirement for official sources. Rather, any info from the newspaper will be just for personal knowledge of the true date.

Stuart
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Folks

I have started a thread on Joseph Graham in the Non-Commemorations section, see here

Until we know the exact date of his death and his number can all further discussions about him move to that thread rather than this one to avoid duplication.

Thanks

Adam
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milmor_1



Joined: 03 Jun 2009
Posts: 118
Location: Ireland

PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This soldier is listed on the Memorial;

SCOTT, William Private 2155 7th Bn Royal Munster Fusiliers
Born: Langholm, Dumfries Resided: Pontefract, Yorkshire Enlisted: Pontefract, Yorkshire.
Age: 28 Date of Death: 26/08/1915 Cause: Killed in action.
Family Notes: Son of, John and Elizabeth Scott, of South Bailey Gate, Pontefract; husband of Nellie Johnson (Formerly Scott), of 53, South Bailey Gate, Pontefract.
Grave/Memorial: Panel 185 to 190. Helles Memorial.
Irish War Memorial Records Page No: Volume VII, Page 334.
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4991
Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Name: McGOWAN, SIDNEY
Initials: S
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Captain
Regiment/Service: King's Own Scottish Borderers
Unit Text: 5th Bn.
Secondary Regiment: North Staffordshire Regiment
Secondary Unit Text: attd. 1st/6th Bn.
Date of Death: 25/05/1917
Awards: M C
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Bay 6.
Memorial: ARRAS MEMORIAL

From The War Illustrated, Volume 9, page 3228

CAPTAIN SYDNEY McGOWAN, M.C., killed in action, was son of Mr.
William McGowan, of Broomholm Place, Langholm. A trooper in the
Lanarkshire Yeomanry, he joined up with his regiment on the outbreak of
war, and afterwards transferred to the King's Own Scottish Borderers, in
which regiment he obtained his commission as a second-lieutenant. Later,
he was attached first to the North Staffordshire and then to the South
Staffordshire Regiment, where he rose rapidly to the rank of captain. In
September, 1916, he was decorated with the Military Cross by the King,
for bravery in a bombing raid, and it was in a bombing raid that he lost
his life In May, 1917.

There is also a photo accompanying the article which is quite poor in my electronic copy.
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4991
Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UKNIWM have an error, they have spelt it LANGHOLME instead of LANGHOLM. I have mailed a correction.

\Paul
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DelBoy



Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 4858
Location: The County of Angus

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:50 am    Post subject: Pte. John Scott Reply with quote

DerekR wrote:
WW1
John Scott London Scottish


(Glasgow Herald 8th Dec 1914)
"A telegram has been received at Langholm announcing the death of Private John Scott of the London Scottish. He took part in the recent fighting and charges of that regiment, was wounded, and has now succumbed. He was the son of Captain Scott, Langholm, where he was born and brought up, being afterwards apprenticed in Langholm to the woollen trade. He left the town two or three years ago for London. He was a member of Langholm Rugby Club."

CWGC
Name: SCOTT, J
Rank: Private
Service No: 2195
Date of Death: 15/11/1914
Age: 21
Regiment/Service: London Regiment (London Scottish) 14th Bn.
Grave Reference: Plot II. 364A.
Cemetery: CREIL COMMUNAL CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Capt. James Scott, of 74, Taylor Rd., Wallington, Surrey.

SNWM
Surname: SCOTT
Firstname: John
Service Number: 2195
Date Death: 15/11/1914
Place of birth: Langholm
Other: 14th (County of London) Bn. (London Scottish).
SNWM roll: SCOTTISH CASUALTIES EXTRACTED FROM ENGLISH REGIMENTS
Rank: Pte
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DelBoy



Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 4858
Location: The County of Angus

PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:23 pm    Post subject: Pte. William Maxwell Reply with quote

WW1
KING'S OWN SCOTTISH BORDERERS
W. Maxwell

(Glasgow Herald 19th June 1915)
"Private William Maxwell, 1st K.O.S.B., was killed in action about May 11 at the Dardanelles. He was 27 years of age, and was with his regiment in India when the war broke out. His brother Private J. Maxwell, Highland Light Infantry, was shot in the headand is in hospital in London. His home was at Langholm."

CWGC
MAXWELL, W
Rank: Private
Service No: 9480
Date of Death: 05/06/1915
Regiment/Service: King's Own Scottish Borderers 1st Bn.
Grave Reference: I. B. 41.
Cemetery: EAST MUDROS MILITARY CEMETERY

SNWM
Surname: MAXWELL
Forename: William
Rank: Pte
Service number: 9480
Place of birth: Langholm Dumfries
Date of death: 5 June 1915
Theatre of death: Dardanelles
SNWM roll: THE KING'S OWN SCOTTISH BORDERERS
Other detail: 1st Bn.
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DelBoy



Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 4858
Location: The County of Angus

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:48 pm    Post subject: C.S.M. Joseph Turnbull Reply with quote

WW1
Jos Turnbull, Scottish Rifles

(Glasgow Herald 23rd June 1915)
"Sergeant-Major Joseph Turnbull, 6th Scottish Rifles, was killed on the western front on June 15. He was through the Boer War, and was the third son of Mrs Turnbull, Mary Street, Langholm, and the late Mr Wm. Turnbull, warehouseman, Langholm."

CWGC
TURNBULL, JOSEPH
Rank: Company Serjeant Major
Service No: 535
Date of Death: 15/06/1915
Regiment/Service: Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) 6th Bn.
Panel Reference: Panel 15 and 16.
Memorial: LE TOURET MEMORIAL

SNWM
Surname: TURNBULL
Forename: J
Rank: WO2 (CSM)
Service number: 535
Place of birth: Langholm
Date of death: 15 June 1915
Theatre of death: France
SNWM roll: THE CAMERONIANS (SCOTTISH RIFLES)
Other detail: 1/6th Bn.
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