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MURROES (T)
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jamiemcginlay



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 939
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:35 pm    Post subject: MURROES (T) Reply with quote

Murroes - Dundee District
The Murroes war memorial is a tall slender grey granite rustic column surmounting a low pedestal and with a saddle type cap. The monument stands at the road junction. Sorry for the poor quality of the photographs.



WWI ROLL OF HONOUR:
Brand George Edward Royal Highlanders Private
Brand James Royal Engineers Sapper
Brand William Royal Engineers Corporal
Bruce James Royal Highlanders Private
Bullion George Royal Highlanders Drummer
Bullion John R.S.G. Corporal
Cameron John Royal Highlanders Private
Couper Robert Royal Highlanders Private
Duke David Royal Highlanders Corporal
Guthrie John Niel Scots Guards Captain
Lilburn John Roy Royal Garrison Artillery Bombadier
Lilburn William Royal Garrison Artillery Gunner
McKenzie David Royal Highlanders Corporal
McQuade Alexander Royal Highlanders Corporal
Meldrum David Kings Own Scottish Borderers Private
Milligan James Scottish Horse Trooper
Milne Andrew Royal Highlanders Private
Milne Robert Royal Highlanders Private
Morrison James Royal Highlanders Private
Phillip William Royal Highlanders Private
Rollo James Dingwall A.C.L. A.C.C. Private
Steele Andrew New Zealanders Sergeant



WWII ROLL OF HONOUR:
Collier W.R. Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve Flight Engineer
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Adam Brown
Curator


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7353
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim In notice at least two names on Murroes and Wellbank

Bullion George G. Black Watch Drummer
Bullion John R.S.G. Corporal

Adam
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DelBoy



Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 4854
Location: The County of Angus

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of new shots with a close-up of the names.



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GordonTaos



Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 10
Location: Arroyo Hondo, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is my understanding that the War Memorial at Murroes is due to be cleaned and re-lettered this year as well as having the chains and posts painted.
I am attempting to get the name of my great uncle, Thomas Spence, added to this memorial. He died of wounds suffered on the opening morning of the Great German Spring Offensive of 1918 while a member of the Black Watch.
He was baptised at the church in Murroes when his father was an employee of the Barns of Wedderburn.
He grew up in the area between Alyth and Glen Isla when his father was at Mains of Creuchies. He was working in Perth when he enlisted.
Thanks to this project I have been able to determine that his name is not on any of the memorials in Alyth, Glen Isla, or Perth.
Also through this project i have been able to find out that his name can be added.
Thank you all for your efforts.
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Honoring Private Thomas Spence, 1st/7th Black Watch, Died of Wounds April 2, 1918 at Abancourt, France
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Kenneth Morrison



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 5249
Location: Rockcliffe Dalbeattie

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gordon - welcome and good luck with your efforts.
Are you related via Sarah Spence?

Name: SPENCE, THOMAS
Initials: T
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)
Unit Text: 1st/7th Bn.
Age: 33
Date of Death: 02/04/1918
Service No: 292702
Additional information: Son of Sarah Spence, of Sunset Drive, Hathaway Rd., Garfield Heights, Bedford, Ohio, U.S.A., and the late William Spence. Born at Mains of Creuchies, Alyth, Perthshire. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: IV. E. 2.
Cemetery: FLESQUIERES HILL BRITISH CEMETERY

There is a record of his birth in 1885 in Murroes, Angus at scotlandspeople.gov.uk
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Ken
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1663
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There seems to be a discrepancy here between the birth certificate and the details provided by the NOK. SNWM & SDGW has him born at Montrose

I am aware Angus have a policy and procedure for cases where additions to memorials are being proposed. If it can be proved that the casualty was born at Murroes, he would likely be accepted for addition.
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk
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GordonTaos



Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 10
Location: Arroyo Hondo, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:38 am    Post subject: Pte Thomas Spence Reply with quote

Sarah Spence is my Great Grandmother, the mother of my Grand Father, Andrew MacKenzie Spence.

It appears that Angus has accepted the Birth Certificate that I provided showing that Thomas Spence was born at The Barns of Wedderburn in Murroes Parish.

As Ken has pointed out, Pte. Spence is also listed as being born at Mains of Creuchies. However, his family did not move there until 1895 or so, when he was 10 years old. We have no idea where Montrose came from. Could he perhaps have said Murroes and the person doing the paperwork wrote down Montrose? Or, could there have been some percieved advantage to being from Montrose rather than Murroes?

We also have no idea why Pte. Spence's mother decided not to submit his name for any of the Memorials.

Yet again, I would like to thank the membership of this project for their wonderful work. Your hard work has made the addition of Pte Spence's name to a Memorial possible.
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Honoring Private Thomas Spence, 1st/7th Black Watch, Died of Wounds April 2, 1918 at Abancourt, France
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GordonTaos



Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 10
Location: Arroyo Hondo, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:38 am    Post subject: Identities Reply with quote

I have been trying to line up the name of each man on this Memorial with their listing at the CWGC site. As many of you who have tried this probably know, its easier said than done. Seven of the names (out of 23) listed are certainly difficult to pin down, and an eighth one of the names listed may be mispelled and the ninth might have the wrong unit.
So my questions are:
Is it relatively common to have the wrong unit or a mispelled name?
Is there an online place where I can go that might have better birth information than the CWGC?
In one case I have two men whose names line up, and also live in the same area. Might the original records from the installation of the Memorial still be available in Angus?
Any other hints in the direction that I might go would be greatly appreciated.
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Honoring Private Thomas Spence, 1st/7th Black Watch, Died of Wounds April 2, 1918 at Abancourt, France
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1663
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Errors on memorials are not unusual.
Any birth info ( ie native of, etc ) on CWGC was provided by the NOK, but this can be factually inaccurate. You would need to check the birth certificate to be certain, online at Scotlands People.
It is unlikely any of the Memorial Commitee's records survive. Generally they saw the memorial erected, dispersed any surplus funds and then disbanded, their task complete. Local papers might have some usefull info.
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk
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DelBoy



Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 4854
Location: The County of Angus

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:24 am    Post subject: memorial history research------------------------------- Reply with quote

Gordon,

I think newspapers in most cases as Jim says are the only way to find out how a memorial war, it's site and names were chosen.

I've doen some research into the Arbroath memorial and these newspaper accounts are the only records that seem to survive. However they appear to be greatly detailed with regards to the formation of the committee and have word for word accounts of the meetings, which were public meetings which anyone could attend.

I was planning to put a consice history of the memorials formation on the forum in time.

I imagine Murroes would be covered by Dundee newspapers.

Cheers,
Derek.
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Kenneth Morrison



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 5249
Location: Rockcliffe Dalbeattie

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gordon
Information on place of birth is available on-line on the Scottish National War Memorial site at http://www.snwm.org/website/main.html

The information, in my experience, is often correct BUT.....

it is derived from an official Government publication "Soldiers who died in the Great War" (also available on-line from various sources) which obtained the detail from soldiers' records.
So there is already two chances for mis-transcribing the place of birth!!

And it all depends on the information provided by the soldier.
As a little aside - as far as I am aware the only enlistment papers where the recruit was asked for his date of birth were those of the Canadians - and more often than not the dates are different from the actual, but usually the day and month are correct.

In this day and age we are all used to quoting our date and place of birth for all sorts of transactions but in the early 1900's no one really needed or asked for this information; and people in rural communities moved around a lot (much more than I would have believed)
So when a soldier was asked for his date and place of birth, the answer would be to the best of his knowledge - and when next of kin were asked after the War it would often be as far as they remembered.

Even this can be helpful. I've traced a couple of people through census locations which lined up with where they said they were born - and worked back to their actual place of birth from there.

Hope this is helpful and if you are really stuck why not post the names here and we'll see if anyone can help.
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Ken
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GordonTaos



Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 10
Location: Arroyo Hondo, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:38 pm    Post subject: Thanks Reply with quote

You folks have been a big help, and I have just had time to look up one name. Bruce, James Royal Highlanders Private.
The three names listed on the CWGC site either did not have a birth place, or the birth place was deemed by me to be too far away.
However, the SNWM website listed a man who may not even be on the CWGC site, and it looks like a match.

Surname BRUCE
Firstname James
Service Number S/15634
Date Death 11/12/1916
Decoration
Place of birth Dundee
Other latterly 33406. 16th Bn. The High. Light Infantry.
SNWM roll THE BLACK WATCH (ROYAL HIGHLANDERS)
Rank Pte
Theatre of death F.& F.

Thanks again, I'll keep you updated
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Honoring Private Thomas Spence, 1st/7th Black Watch, Died of Wounds April 2, 1918 at Abancourt, France
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GordonTaos



Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 10
Location: Arroyo Hondo, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:42 pm    Post subject: Whoops Reply with quote

Actually, he is on the CWGC, looks as if I have a bit of learning to do.

BRUCE
Initials: J C
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Highland Light Infantry
Unit Text: 16th Bn.
Date of Death: 11/12/1916
Service No: 33406
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: XX. F. 11.
Cemetery: ETAPLES MILITARY CEMETERY
_________________
Honoring Private Thomas Spence, 1st/7th Black Watch, Died of Wounds April 2, 1918 at Abancourt, France
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GordonTaos



Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 10
Location: Arroyo Hondo, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:59 pm    Post subject: James Morrison Reply with quote

Based solely upon the recorded place of birth listed on the SNWM, I have narrowed down the name "James Morrison" to three men.
They are:
James Morrison, Pte S/3723 1st Bn RH from Dundee
James B Morrison, Pte S/316515 1st Bn RH from Dundee
James Morrison, Pte 2434 8th Bn RH from Montrose

Does anyone have any further ideas on how to pick out our man that is listed on this memorial?
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Honoring Private Thomas Spence, 1st/7th Black Watch, Died of Wounds April 2, 1918 at Abancourt, France
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GordonTaos



Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 10
Location: Arroyo Hondo, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:19 pm    Post subject: Alexander McQuade Reply with quote

McQuade Alexander Royal Highlanders Corporal

I have not been able to locate a match for this man based upon unit, rank, name, or birthplace matches.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
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Honoring Private Thomas Spence, 1st/7th Black Watch, Died of Wounds April 2, 1918 at Abancourt, France
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