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What we all mean by a 'memorial' - a question?
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
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Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:27 am    Post subject: What we all mean by a 'memorial' - a question? Reply with quote

Please accept that I am not trying to provoke an argument here - only been here one day after all. But trying to get a ruling or consensus at the margins of what we do.
I think we all know what we understand by civic, regimental, individual memorials etc but what about the following
1. An apparent gravemarker to an individual but where there is no grave. Take the example below from Buittle, there is no grave, he is actually buried in Mesopotamia according to CWGC so therefore this is an individual memorial, or is it?


2. The second is where an individual's name is added to a family grave marker, in this case there will be one or more people actually buried, but just not the soldier(s) concerned, sometimes these contain 2 or more solders (e.g. brothers). Should we count that as a memorial? This pic from Dalbeattie shows 2 brothers, neither of whom are buried here.


The problem is that without research of each gravestone in burial records or CWGC, it probably won't be possible to say whether it is a marker for where that individual is buried or is a memorial.

I am tempted to say that if it is a grave marker (for anyone) or appears to be a grave marker then we should not include it as a memorial but leave it to the British War Memorial Project but I would be interested to hear opinions of others.
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David McNay
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't include these.

However, this is a good question. Glasgow City Council have a list of what they consider War Memorials. They include the statue of the Duke of Wellington in Royal Exchange Square, the statue of William of Orange near the Cathedral, and the statue of Sir John Moore in George Square. They consider them to be memorials to the Battle of Waterloo, The "Glorious Revolution" (their words, not mine) of 1690, and the Battle of Corunna.

I wouldn't consider these to be War Memorials, but what does everyone else think?
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dhubthaigh
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No,

Leave the gravestone inscriptions to the British War Graves Project.

Mark
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David McNay
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. So that's decided.

(I sound really bolshy there, don't I? I think the power is going to my head...)
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to Spoons for bringing this up, it had to be discussed at some point.

Here are my personal thoughts on the matter.

To start with the headstones point.

I think the simple answer to this is that The British War memorial Project is out there photographing gravestones so why duplicate their effort here. Exceptions to this would be if you were adding additional information to a thread and wanted to post a photo of a relavent gravestone.

In answer to Davidís Glasgow statues.

Sir John Moore should be included, he was killed at Corunna.
I havenít photographed Wellington in Edinburgh since I didnít consider it a war memorial, but the Glasgow one does have panels on the base which I think commemorate his war time service so I think it should be included.
I donít know the William of Orange one so canít comment.

I was unsure about Ensign Ewartís grave and Haigís statue on the Esplanade in Edinburgh but perhaps they should be included?
Do we say that a Scottish War memorial is anything that commemorates any Army, Navy, Air Forces in war & peace and Merchant Navy & civilian services in wartime?

Aircraft crash-sites is a bit of a grey area which springs to mind. Do we only commemorate those sites which have a cairn or do all crash-sites count?

The subject of sculptors also throws up examples of memorials which are not related to a military subject but are relavant to the thread and should be posted.

Perhaps the best thing is to have very simple guidelines.

1. Donít post anything on this forum if it has a better home somewhere else.
2. Any photo or information is acceptable if it relates to the topic being discussed.

Spoons mentioned the BWMP so we should have it in our links. If anyone knows of forums / websites which deal with similar themes to ours we should make sure have them in the links section.

Regards

Adam
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David McNay
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, here's what I reckon:

1. Gravestones are covered by other organisations. However, if its relevant to a thread about, say, an inividual commemorated by a plaque in perhaps Glasgow Cathedral, then include it if you feel it merits inclusion.

2. Statues to individuals, such as Wellington. Again, if you feel it merits inclusion, then include. Personally, I don't agree about statues to Wellington or William of Orange, but if someone else wants to photograph them and post them, then I won't stop them.
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Glaschu



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello....I am somewhat shaken at a photo of the Milligan and Watson grave posted on this thread. I just happened to breeze in from a link on http://scotfamtree.11.forumer.com/index.php and saw this post, happened to check it out and saw staring me in the face , the names of my family whom I have been researching Shocked . The dates and all the names fit...if you have any more information, I would be extremely grateful!!!!

In anticipation and picking myself off the floor...
Glaschu
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spoons



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Glaschu - sorry to give you a shock !

I only posted that picture here as an illustration of a question. Normally we don't have graves pictured and I don't picture them or research them either. If I am photographing memorials or graves for someone else and I happen to see any war graves or that mention soldiers then I photograph them in case they come in handy in the future and they did here.

Sorry I cannot tell you anything more about the grave but it is in Dalbeattie cemetery, in the first half as you go up the hill and very probably on the right hand side. Sorry that's all I can tell you .
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apanderson
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I might as well put my tuppence worth in . . . .

There is a memorial in Grangemouth - it reads:

"131 Independent Parachute Regiment, Royal Engineers (Volunteers)

In memory of those Sapper Volunteers who lost their lives at Cromwell Weir on Exercise Trent Chase, 28th September 1975"

It contains 10 names. One of the men is buried in Grandsable Cemetery (also in Grangemouth) and has a CWGC gravestone. I thought at first that I had misread the inscription and it was actually 1915 as it's in amongst other WW1 stones, until I came across this memorial.

Does this qualify as being a 'war' memorial?

Anne
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spoons



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well for my money, yes - the logic being that death was due to their service in the armed forces. By the way, strictly speaking they won't be CWGC graves, they will be MOD ones. CWGC is only responsible for graves in WW1 and WW2 although they also do some work on behalf of MOD I understand - there was a recent thread on Great War Forum on this point.
I remember throughout the '70s that MOD resisted those who wanted to put those killed in NI onto war memorials but we seem to have seen a wider definition of war memorials over the years.
If it helps people to be proud of those they have lost, put them in I say.
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apanderson
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that spoons, I didn't know the difference.

I presume that when the CWGC man is doing his rounds, he'll give this one a wee dust down too?

It's really weird seeing one with a date of 1975 beside others from WW1 & WW2.

I'll not post it yet - I don't know what cagegory it would come under??

Anne
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spoons



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess you should just post it under 'other' or regimental and the mods will move it if they think it more appropriate elsewhere.
Check out this for the non world war graves http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=68833&hl=1991
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Glaschu



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Spoons,

Don't be sorry...it made my day!

I think the two brothers names are on the War memorial in Sanquar. Their brother is my grandfather who was awarded the DCM and bar in WW1 and was a POW in WW2. He was very fond of his two big brothers! My Mum and Aunt were named after the two Watson ladies.

I am in Canada...so this is a treasure!
Glaschu
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David McNay
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

apanderson wrote:

I'll not post it yet - I don't know what cagegory it would come under??

Anne


As Spoons has already said, post it in "other" in the relevant location.

David
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spoons



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glaschu wrote:
Hi Spoons,

Don't be sorry...it made my day!

I think the two brothers names are on the War memorial in Sanquar. Their brother is my grandfather who was awarded the DCM and bar in WW1 and was a POW in WW2. He was very fond of his two big brothers! My Mum and Aunt were named after the two Watson ladies.

I am in Canada...so this is a treasure!
Glaschu
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