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Scots at Fromelles
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Adam Brown
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
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Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:13 am    Post subject: Scots at Fromelles Reply with quote

You may have seen that the excavations of the mass graves at Fromelles have started this week. There are a few Scots who will be re-interred in the new CWGC cemetery. There are actually quite a few men from Fife, Angus and Perth amongst them.

It's not because the Black Watch were involved in the fighting, it is because they were serving with 2/6th and 2/7th Bns of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment.

The men had formerly served in the Highland Cyclist Battalion and at some point were transferred from this Home defence unit to the Warwickshires.

I'm trying to identify the Scots in the list provided by the CWGC and I'll publish it here soon.

Regards

Adam
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Adam Brown
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7355
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My intention for looking into the Fromelles names is to see if any of them are listed on Scottish war memorials. I haven’t been through the CWGC database to check each name but by using the details provided on the CWGC Fromelles website and cross-checking them against the SNWM for the dates in July 1916 when most of the men were killed I have identified a few names with a Scottish connection.
The Fromelles website splits the names into UK and Australian casualties and I have only looked into the UK names. It may be that some of the AIF names have a Scottish connection as well.

The following were either identified by CWGC or SNWM as being Scottish .
ADAM , John . 6152 . Private . 2/6th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916 . Grangemouth, Stirlingshire
ALLAN , Andrew . 241891 . Serjeant . 2/6th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . . Bannockburn, Stirlingshire
BOWIE , John Lumsden . 4131 . Private . 2/1st (Bucks) Bn. Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry . . Aberdeen
COLLINS , Mitchell . 267217 . Private . 2/7th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916 . Kennoway, Fife
COULL , George . 5598 . Private . 2/7th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916 . Aberchirder, Banff
CUMMING , John . S/22169 . Private . 6th Bn. Cameron Highlanders . 20/07/1916 . Inverness
DRYBURGH , Alexander . 267224 . Private . 2/7th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916 . Wemyss, Fife
GALLOWAY , George I . 267233 . Private . 2/7th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916 . Buckhaven, Fife
GRAY , Alexander . 267239 . Private . 2/7th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . . Wormit, Fife
HOWISON , Harry . 9121 . Corporal . 2nd Bn. Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) . 20/07/1916 . Edinburgh
IRELAND , David L . 6170 . Private . 2/6th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916 . Scoonie, Leven, Fife .
LOUDON , Alexander . S/22003 . Private . 6th Bn. Cameron Highlanders . 20/07/1916 . High Blantyre, Lanarkshire
MACDONALD , ARTHUR . 5658 . Lance Corporal . 2/7th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916 . Inverallan Banff
MacLEAN , Allan Charles . S/22150 . Private . 6th Bn. Cameron Highlanders . 20/07/1916 . Lochmaddy, North Uist
MARSHALL , David . 267261 . Lance Corporal . 2/7th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916 . Perth
McGUIRE , Joseph . S/16302 . Private . 6th Bn. Cameron Highlanders . 20/07/1916 . Glasgow
MELVILLE , John . 267272 . Lance Corporal . 2/7th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916 . Perth
MELVIN , James Donaldson Frame . S/22021 . Private . 7th Bn. Cameron Highlanders . 20/07/1916 . Abington, Lanarkshire
MILLER , William . 5891 . Private . 1st Bn. Royal Munster Fusiliers . 21/07/1916 . Dundee
MITCHELL , James . S/11243 . Private . 7th Bn. Cameron Highlanders . 19/07/1916 . Coldstream, Berwickshire
MITCHELL , Maxwell . 241904 . Private . 2/6th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916 . Falkirk
PATON , Ernest . 5683 . Private . 2/7th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916 . Forfar
PRATT , George . 5687 . Private . 2/7th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916 . Kettle Hill, Kingskettle, Fife
PRYDE , John . 5688 . Lance Corporal . 2/7th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916 . Largo, Fife
RICHARDSON , William . 267290 . Lance Corporal . 2/7th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916 . Perth
ROBERTSON , William . S/22 113 . Private . 6th Bn. “D” Coy. Cameron Highlanders . . Edinburgh
SIMPSON , David . 267298 . Corporal . 2/7th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . . Kirkcaldy, Fife
SMITH , John . 5704 . Private . 2/7th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916 . Forfar
STANWAY , Herbert William . 265295 . Corporal . 2/7th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916 . Aberdeen
THOM , David Low . 5712 . Private . 2/7th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916 . Forfar


The following do not have a Scottish home town on the Fromelles CWGC list but are listed in the Scottish National War Memorial database

Formerly served in a Scottish unit - the Highland Cyclist Battalion

CUNNINGHAM, Robert . 267218 . Lance Corporal . 2/7th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916
DONALD , Tom . 6162 . Private . 2/6th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916
TURNBULL, Henry . 267305 . Private . 2/7th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916
WELSH, Robert . 5718 . Lance Corporal . 2/7th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916 . Bortley, Durham

Serving in the Cameron Highlanders

BAXTER , William . S/22023 . Private . 7th Bn. Cameron Highlanders . 20/07/1916
MARSHALL , Robert . S/21711 . Private . 6th Bn. Cameron Highlanders . 20/07/1916
STEWART , Peter . S/22145 . Private . 7th Bn. Cameron Highlanders . 20/07/1916
WALLACE , George . S/22263 . Lance Corporal . 7th Bn. Cameron Highlanders .

Non-Scots home or no home on Fromelles CWGC list but on SNWM database

DONALDSON, Geoffrey Boles. . Captain . 2/7th Bn. “C” Coy. Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916 . Manchester
MARSHALL, Robert. 266236 . Private . 2/1st (Bucks) Bn. Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry . 19/07/1916
MILLARD, Joseph Gordon. S/21548 . Private . 6th Bn. Cameron Highlanders . 20/07/1916 . Newport, South Wales
MITCHELL, George James. . Second Lieutenant . 11th Bn. Devonshire Regiment . 19/07/1916 . Bristol
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Adam Brown
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
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Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve had a quick look at some names on the CWGC databse and most of the names I’ve checked are currently listed on the Loos memorial but so far I’ve found one officer of the 2/7th Bn Warwickshires listed on the Ploegsteert Memorial as well. I would have thought they would have all been listed on the same memorial but since this area was taken over from the French it seems the normal criteria for inclusion on a specific memorial don’t apply to these men.

Thankfully once identified they will be commemorated at the spot they are buried and not on two memorials miles to the South.

CWGC details

Loos

The Loos Memorial forms the side and back of Dud Corner Cemetery, and commemorates over 20,000 officers and men who have no known grave, who fell in the area from the River Lys to the old southern boundary of the First Army, east and west of Grenay.

Ploegsteert

The PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL commemorates more than 11,000 servicemen of the United Kingdom and South African forces who died in this sector during the First World War and have no known grave. The memorial serves the area from the line Caestre-Dranoutre-Warneton to the north, to Haverskerque-Estaires-Fournes to the south, including the towns of Hazebrouck, Merville, Bailleul and Armentieres, the Forest of Nieppe, and Ploegsteert Wood. The original intention had been to erect the memorial in Lille. Those commemorated by the memorial did not die in major offensives, such as those which took place around Ypres to the north, or Loos to the south. Most were killed in the course of the day-to-day trench warfare which characterised this part of the line, or in small scale set engagements, usually carried out in support of the major attacks taking place elsewhere.
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anne park
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 4:24 pm    Post subject: Ian A Cameron Reply with quote

Cameron Ian Alastair Pte 917 32nd Australian Imperial Forces born Banchory 02/06/1894 enlisted Claremont, WA Age 22 Killed in Action F & F 19-Jul-16 Son of James Cameron & Margaret Ann (Pirie) Cameron, Waulkmill, Inchmarlo. 1911-12 Voter's Roll: Firbank. Details in Banchory East Church. City Roll of Honour : Banchory. Aberdeen University Book of Remembrance. more info. Occ: Attendant, Hospital of Insane, Claremont, WA. MI Banchory Churchyard : Woodhead, Inchmarlo. V. C. Corner Australian Cemetery M. R. 07 Panel 005 Column 1 Banchory, Banchory East Church City & Strachan Memorials
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 4:27 pm    Post subject: John R Forrest Reply with quote

Forrest John Robertson Pte 3046 54th Australian Inf born Fordyce 13/10/1890 enlisted North Ryde, NSW Age 25 Killed in Action F & F 19-Jul-16 Son of James & Isa Forrest, Lilacbank, Keith. Narive of Fordyce. Educated : Grange, Banffshire. The Roll of Honour: Vol III Page 105. Brother Frank also died. (Jack). V. C. Corner Australian Cemetery M. R. 07 Panel 10 KeithMemorial
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anne park
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 4:41 pm    Post subject: John L Bowie Reply with quote

Bowie John Lumsden Pte 4131 1st Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry born Aberdeen enlisted Aberdeen residence Aberdeen Age 33 Killed in Action F & F 19-Jul-16 Son of William & Jane Bowie, 42 Holburn Rd; Aberdeen. City Roll of Honour. Loos Memorial M. R. 19 Panel 83 to 85 People's Journal 19-8-16: Page 8 : Photo City & Mannofield Memorials
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anne park
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 4:43 pm    Post subject: George Coull Reply with quote

Coull George Pte 5598 7th Royal Warwickshire Regt born Aberchirder enlisted Perth residence Aberchirder Died F & F 19-Jul-16 Formerly 1701 Highland Cyclist Bn. The War Book of Turriff & 12 Miles Round : Page 323 Occ : Grocer's Assistant. Loos Memorial M. R. 19 Panel 22 to 25 Aberchirder & Marnoch Memorials
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apanderson
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TURNBULL, Henry . 267305 . Private . 2/7th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment . 19/07/1916

I've been helping someone called Mel on the Rootschat Forum and between us, I think we might have identified him.

He was born in Denny and was originally in the Cyclist Corps.

If anyone wants to read the thread of how things evolved, see:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,383921.msg2562319.html#msg2562319

Anne
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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anne P

Many thanks for the Aberdeenshire names. I guessed there would be some Scots in the AIF names but It will be a long slog going through CWGC / AWM databases to identify them.

Anne A

Good to hear about the GWF project to help identify relatives. Good work all round.

Cheers

Adam
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1663
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:15 pm    Post subject: FROMELLES 19-20 JUL 1916 Reply with quote

At 11:00 am on 30 January 2010, the ceremony to rebury the first of the 250 Australian and British soldiers recovered from Pheasant Wood will commence at the new Fromelles (Pheasant Wood) Military Cemetery, which is currently under construction by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

In March 2010, a specially convened identification board will consider evidence to determine what, if any, level of identity can be attributed to each soldier. Evidence will include historical, anthropological, archaeological and DNA information.
In April 2010, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission will begin erecting permanent headstones for each soldier reflecting the determinations of the identification board.

The last soldier’s remains will be buried at the final commemorative event and dedication of the new cemetery on 19 July 2010 – the 94th anniversary of the Battle of Fromelles.
Edited details taken from CWGC e-mail

FROMELLES 19-20 JUL 1916 - BRITISH CASUALTY LIST WITH NO KNOWN RELATIVES

At present the following men with residences in Scotland have not had NOK come forward.

6152 Private ADAM, JOHN, 2nd/6th Bn. Royal Warwickshire Regiment Grangemouth, Stirlingshire
4131 Private BOWIE, JOHN LUMSDEN, 2nd/1st Bucks Bn. Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry Aberdeen
267239 Private GRAY, ALEX, 2nd/7th Bn. Royal Warwickshire Regiment, Wormit, Fife
S/22003 Private LOUDON, ALEXANDER, 6th Bn. Cameron Highlanders, Lanarkshire
S/22150 Private MacLEAN, ALLAN CHARLES, 6th Bn. Cameron Highlanders, Lochmaddy, North Uist
S/16302 Private McGUIRE, JOSEPH, 6th Bn. Cameron Highlanders Glasgow
5683 Private PATON, ERNEST, 2nd/7th Bn. Royal Warwickshire Regiment, Fofar
267290 Lance Corporal RICHARDSON, WILLIAM, 2nd/7th Bn. Royal Warwickshire Regiment, Perth
S/22113 Private ROBERTSON, WILLIAM, "D" Coy. 6th Bn. Cameron Highlanders, Edinburgh
267298 Corporal SIMPSON, DAVID, 2nd/7th Bn. Royal Warwickshire Regiment, Kirkcaldy, Fife
5712 Private THOM, DAVID LOW, 2nd/7th Bn. Royal Warwickshire Regiment, Forfar

An interesting video and further details are found at:

http://www.cwgc.org/news.asp?newsid=154&view=yes
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:24 pm    Post subject: FROMELLES 19-20 JUL 1916 Reply with quote

The Fromelles story is now becoming a bit ridiculous with news papers around the country reporting that several particular individuals were buried on Saturday. It seems there is one man for each paper. The distress that this will cause families if their relative is not confirmed among the dead by the Identification Board in March is really quite sad.

See full Mod Press Release following the first burial on Saturday.

http://nds.coi.gov.uk/content/detail.aspx?NewsAreaId=2&ReleaseID=410726&SubjectId=2

The text below is taken from Notes to Editors and could not be more clear.

Each soldier will be buried initially without a permanent headstone awaiting identification if possible. In March 2010, a specially convened identification board will consider evidence to determine what, if any, level of identity can be attributed to each soldier. Evidence will include historical, anthropological, archaeological and DNA information.

In April 2010, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission will begin erecting permanent headstones for each soldier reflecting the determinations of the identification board.

_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk
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anne park
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:59 pm    Post subject: Re: George Coull Reply with quote

Coull George Pte 5598 7th Royal Warwickshire Regt born Aberchirder 18 Aug 1894 enlisted Perth residence Aberchirder Died F & F 19-Jul-16 Formerly 1701 Highland Cyclist Bn. Son of John & Mary (nee Brockie) Coull, 148 Main St; Aberchirder. The War Book of Turriff & 12 Miles Round : Page 323 Occ : Grocer's Assistant. Loos Memorial M. R. 19 Panel 22 to 25 Aberchirder & Marnoch Memorials
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:49 pm    Post subject: Remains identified - MOD Press Release 17/3/2010 Reply with quote

WW1 SOLDIERS KILLED AT FROMELLES ARE IDENTIFIED

" The names of 75 WW1 Australian soldiers killed at the Battle of Fromelles in 1916
have been confirmed today. Sadly no British soldiers could be named at this stage
and families in the UK who have been helping with the identification process have
been notified.
While they could not be named individually, three British soldiers were confirmed to
be among the 250 soldiers recovered from the mass graves at Pheasant Wood and
128 were confirmed to have served the Australian Army. The remaining 44 are, for
the time being, classified as ‘unknown’. "

The above is taken from a MOD Press Release of 17th March.
It, and other information, can be found on the CWGC website:


http://www.cwgc.org/news.asp?newsid=167&view=yes
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Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk
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anne park
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:55 am    Post subject: A man's a man for a that...... Robert Burns Reply with quote

Name: BURNS, ROBERT DAVID
Initials: R D
Nationality: Australian
Rank: Lieutenant
Regiment/Service: Australian Machine Gun Corps
Unit Text: 14th Coy.
Date of Death: 20/07/1916
Service No: 43
Additional information: Son of Col. the Hon. Sir James Burns, K.C.M.G., and Mary Burns.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: I. F. 1.
Cemetery: FROMELLES (PHEASANT WOOD) MILITARY CEMETERY
He is the son of James Burns who was born at Polmont, Stirlingshire in 1846 leaving with his brother to work as jackeroos he later devoted his time to volunteer defences joining the Light Horse in WWI helped establish a scheme for insuring enlisted men with dependants. I know he lost two son the other in 1921 but unable to find out more about him.
I'll be sure to visit his grave and lay a wee card saying
A man's a man for a that.
Anne
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kinnethmont



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1663
Location: Aberdeenshire

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 4:27 pm    Post subject: More Australians identified - Announcement 8th May 2010 Reply with quote

The Minister for Veterans' Affairs and Minister for Defence Personnel, Alan Griffin, today announced the names of a further 19 soldiers who were recently reburied in Fromelles, France.

Names of Soldiers Identified at May 2010 Joint Identification Board

Regimental number Rank Surname Name Unit
3761 Private Bishop Raymond Charles 55th Battalion
Lieutenant Chinner Eric Harding 32nd Battalion
2006 Private Croft George 30th Battalion
2010 Private Croker Harry 30th Battalion
3047 Private Dewar Robert Arthur 55th Battalion
4509 Private Harriott Laurence 54th Battalion
188 Private Hawcroft Charles Henry 30th Battalion
4807 Private Irvin David George 54th Battalion
293 Private McLean Hugh 32nd Battalion
269 Private Nevill Joseph Howard 31st Battalion
2906 Lance Corporal Pagan George 54th Battalion
320 Private Parry Frederick 29th Battalion
3099 2nd Lieutenant Pratt Albert Ernest 53rd Battalion
4614 Private Spence Malcolm 30th Battalion
2898 Corporal Stalgis Gregory Francis 14th Machine Gun Company
4885 Private Verpillot Aime 53rd Battalion
4617 Private Wallis Joseph Patrick (AKA Wailes) 54th Battalion
2910 Private Webb Thomas Richard 60th Battalion
1314 Private Wilkin Ernest Frank 29th Battalion
_________________
Jim

If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

www.kinnethmont.co.uk
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