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Kirkee and Bangalore, India

 
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paul Nixon



Joined: 08 Jan 2007
Posts: 22
Location: India

PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:25 pm    Post subject: Kirkee and Bangalore, India Reply with quote

I'd not thought to post this on this forum before, but having today been able to send a grave photo from Bangalore to another forum member, I thought I'd post this offer here.

I have a pretty complete set of photos of names on the 1914-1918 war memorial at Kirkee, Pune (also often spelt as Poona) and of some WW1 era graves and memorials from the Protestant and Catholic cemeteries at Hosur Road, Bangalore. If any forum members require photos from these two locations please send me a PM stating the name of the person (in the case of Bangalore) and the name and panel number (in the case of Kirkee). I also took photographs of about 1/4 to 1/3rd of the WW2 graves at Kirkee which are now with the British War Memorial Project.

Regards

Paul
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DerekR
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Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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Location: Hawick, Scotland

PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul,
Two of my boys is listed on the Kirkee Memorial, Andrew Slorance of the Seaforths and William M. Scott of the Scottish Rifles.
What has always intrigued me is to why they are listed on a memorial in that both died of disease and I would have assumed that they died at a hospital and so would have had a marked burial plot.
Any ideas why they are remembered on a memorial and their graves lost?
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Adam Brown
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derek

From the CWGC eentry for Kirkee

The KIRKEE MEMORIAL commemorates more than 1,800 servicemen who died in India during the First World War, who are buried in civil and cantonment cemeteries in India and Pakistan* where their graves can no longer be properly maintained. This total includes the names of 629 servicemen whose remains were brought from Bombay (Sewri) Cemetery for re-interment here in 1960. On the same memorial are commemorated almost 200 East and West African servicemen who died in non-operational zones in India in the Second World War, and whose graves either cannot be located or are so situated that maintenance is not possible. The memorial stands within KIRKEE WAR CEMETERY, which was created to receive Second World War graves from the western and central parts of India where their permanent maintenance could not be assured. The cemetery contains 1668 Commonwealth burials of the Second World War. * Ahmadabad Cantonment Cemetery; Ahmednagar Government Cemetery; Ajmer New Cemetery; Ajmer Roman Catholic Cemetery; Alibag Cemetery; Ambala Cantonment Cemetery; Amritsar Cantonment Cemetery; Bakloh Cemetery; Belgaum Government Cemetery; Bhusawal Cemetery; Bina Cemetery; Bombay (Sewri) Cemetery; Dagshai Cemetery; Dalhousie Civil Cemetery; Dalhousie Military Cemetery; Darekasa Cemetery; Deesa Cantonment Cemetery; Deolali Government Cemetery; Deoli Cemetery; Dhamangaon Cemetery; Erinpura New Cemetery; Ferozepore Military Cemetery; Hoshiarpur (Christ Church) Churchyard; Igatpuri Cemetery; Indore New Cemetery; Jubbulpore Cantonment Cemetery; Jullundur Cantonment Cemetery; Jutogh New Cemetery; Kalka Cemetery; Kamptee Cemetery; Kamptee Roman Catholic Cemetery; Kasauli Cemetery; Khandwa Cemetery; Kirkee New Cemetery; Mhow New Cemetery; Mount Abu Cemetery; Nagpur (Talki) Cemetery; Nasirabad Government Cemetery; Neemuch Cemetery; Nowgong No 60 New Cemetery; Pachmari Cemetery; Palampur Churchyard; Poona (St Sepulchre's) Cemetery; Purandhar Cemetery; Ratlan (BB&CI Railway) European Cemetery; Sabathu Cemetery; Sanjauli Cemetery, Simla; Simla Old Cemetery; Solon Cemetery.

If you find an old IWGC register for India the names are listed by the original cemteries. Edinburgh Central Library has a full set of the old registers. That's I how started my research a few years ago. The long way!

Adam
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DerekR
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Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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Location: Hawick, Scotland

PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam Brown wrote:
Edinburgh Central Library has a full set of the old registers. That's I how started my research a few years ago. The long way!

So did I ! They were at the back of the room in a small gantry that looked down a long way over the road. Hours and absolute hours I spent there and now I can do the same in relative minutes on the CWGC website!

Back to Kirkee - why couldn't the graves be maintained as I thought that the preservation of graves was enshrined in the CWGC charter?
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spoons



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 4967
Location: St John's Town of Dalry

PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aren't some of these cemeteries in the tribal areas of Pakistan (now a relatively safe area for at least some of the Taliban)? That might at least explain why some of the graves cannot be maintained.
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paul Nixon



Joined: 08 Jan 2007
Posts: 22
Location: India

PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DerekR wrote:
Back to Kirkee - why couldn't the graves be maintained as I thought that the preservation of graves was enshrined in the CWGC charter?


Derek, the answer's in the phrase, "buried in civil and cantonment cemeteries in India and Pakistan." These cemeteries aren't maintained by the CWGC and their upkeep is purely at the discretion of either the relevant church authorities, the municipal authority or, occasionally, the Indian army. The two I've visited at Bangalore are reasonably well maintained, partly I think because the cemeteries are still in use, but I have been to very run down cemeteries in other parts of India. As a previous poster has said, some graves are also located in what is now Pakistan, whilst others are on land owned by the Indian army and therefore off limits to the general public. (There are a lot of 19th century military memorials and graves in Bangalore which fall into that category).

Kirkee though is a CWGC cemetery and the differences between it and non CWGC cemeteries are stark. I'll post some general photographs below to illustrate what I mean.
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paul Nixon



Joined: 08 Jan 2007
Posts: 22
Location: India

PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

General shot of the CWGC maintained Kirkee War Cemetery, Pune. The panels at the back, behind the Cross of Sacrifice, commemorate war dead from 1914-1918.



Another view; note the immaculate lawns and the water-logged ground. I took these photos after several days of heavy rain. Nevertheless, although this area would originally have been jungle, the gardeners ensure that the area is well maintained.


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paul Nixon



Joined: 08 Jan 2007
Posts: 22
Location: India

PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a very different story at non CWGC maintained cemeteries. This is a general shot of one of the Protestant cemeteries at Hosur Road in Bangalore, before the monsoon season. Recent burials can be clearly seen.



And this is another general shot taken one month into the monsoon. The headstones in the foreground are all WW1 era military headstones.



This is the grave of M2/131417 Pte C Hood of the Army Service Corps who died on 2nd September 1916. The headstones in this cemetery are of various design and composition and would have been erected at the time of, or shortly after the serviceman's death. There are none of the familiar CWGC headstones here. Also noticeable about Hood's grave is the snake pit to the right of it.


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Adam Brown
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul

Thanks for posting these photos. I was in Warriston cemetery in Edinburgh yesterday and it was in a pretty poor state as well. During the summer it looks just like your monsoon photo and some of the CWGC headstones can barely be seen. There are no snakes though, only dogs.

Adam
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DerekR
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Location: Hawick, Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul,
Thanks for the pics and information - very interesting indeed.
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alcluith



Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 11:15 am    Post subject: Donald James Reply with quote

Paul
Myy great uncle Donald James of the 6th bn Loyal North Lancs is buried in Hosur Road Bangalore. Don't know if you can keep an eye to see if it marked with a gravestone or not?

rgds

Drew Davidson
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