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Mains War Memorial, Dundee - vandalised and abandoned!
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Murray



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 8:23 am    Post subject: Fountain repair under way Reply with quote

I saw the headline in the Courier and thought!

The article:

WORK HAS begun to stabilise Falkland’s historic fountain badly damaged by a huge lorry last week.

The distinctive landmark, which is believed to have stood in the village since the early 1800s, was struck by an HGV heading for local firm Smith Anderson last Friday.

The incident infuriated many in the community, especially businessman Bob Beveridge who pointed the finger at Fife Council after they added double yellow lines stopping vehicles parking on the road.

Mr Beveridge claimed this had acted as a deterrent to lorry drivers who simply could not manoeuvre round the historic fountain because of the parked cars.

Commenting further on the accident yesterday was Fife and Tay Coast Councillor Donald Lothian, who said the damage to the fountain as “very sad.”

He said, “The incident brings into sharp focus the vulnerability of the fountain given its location and the number of heavy vehicles that pass it, and also the uncertainly about who owns the fountain and therefore where responsibility lies for maintenance and repairs.

“I am however sure that the council will do what they can to help, but the issue of ownership and responsibility needs to be clarified.”

Mr Lothian concluded, “There is also clearly an issue about the part that the double yellow lines outside the church played, in that the absence of parked cars encourages lorries to go round the fountain, and I will take this matter up with the council as a matter of urgency.”

In response to the SNP councillor, Stuart Goodfellow of Fife Council’s transport services said a productive meeting took place in Falkland earlier this week involving community representatives and colleagues from the transport department over the incident.

He added, “We are keen to do what we can to help here.

“We are still gathering information but it is worth reiterating that drivers of all vehicles, including HGVs, have a duty to drive with care and consideration.

“And they must drive in an appropriate manner when carrying out what could be classed as risky manoeuvres in limited space,” he said.

“As for ownership of the fountain, that is also part of our investigation.”

Award-winning stonemason, George Sweeney jun, has been called in to repair the fountain, which is due to feature in a French film being shot in the village this week.
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Murray



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 8:25 am    Post subject: What is Happening to Mains Reply with quote

Re the above article that I just posted. Look how fast the reaction to the damage has been.

Quote:
Award-winning stonemason, George Sweeney jun, has been called in to repair the fountain, which is due to feature in a French film being shot in the village this week.


Why can't Dundee do this?
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Keptie



Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 937
Location: near Arbroath Angus

PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 11:10 am    Post subject: dundee Reply with quote

George Sweeney from Fife was the man who renovated the Edward VIII cypher -1936 on the former Arbroath Employment exchange building in the last few years ( circa 2006 -2007 ) after I got onto the Angus Council and the local newspapers about this scarce Royal Cypher being dumped when the building was knocked down . Paul Mitchell , Angus Council conservation officer found Mr Sweeney in Fife to do the work to restore and preserve it and it is now back in the area it was sited in 1936 in Arbroath (Millgate loan ).

Why can't they work with this Mr Sweeney ?
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Ian Robertson



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 24
Location: Broughty Ferry

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a very brief update for those of you who may think that not much is happening. I was in touch with the council this week after giving them 14 days grace from our meeting on the 5th. They have an update meeting scheduled amongst the department which is tasked with the memorial's restoration. The head of that department has invited one of our number to sit in at the meeting and we have accepted. An update will be issued when any significant developments have been made.

regards

Ian
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Ian Robertson



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 24
Location: Broughty Ferry

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: What is Happening to Mains Reply with quote

Murray wrote:
Re the above article that I just posted. Look how fast the reaction to the damage has been.

Quote:
Award-winning stonemason, George Sweeney jun, has been called in to repair the fountain, which is due to feature in a French film being shot in the village this week.


Why can't Dundee do this?

Without making excuses for our council the answer to your question is probably because of the Film. I would also imagine that if the truck hit it then there may be insurance money involved.

regards

Ian
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David McNay
Administrator


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 11425
Location: Lanarkshire, Scotland

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the time has come to lock this thread now. There are people in discussion with the council regarding this memorial, and they have a remit to represent this project as an interested party.

With that in mind, I don't think it's particularly helpful to leave this thread open - while most of the discussion has been fairly level-headed, I don't think it helpful at this stage to invite criticism of the council, whether it is justified or not.

I will continue to post updates as and when I receive them, as I continue to be kept "in the loop" regarding developments.
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David McNay
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Location: Lanarkshire, Scotland

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another meeting was held last night with the council. I can't give much information for various reasons, but I can report that things appear to be moving in a positive direction.
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David McNay
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
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Location: Lanarkshire, Scotland

PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've unlocked this topic as Ian Robertson has sent me a rather detailed reply regarding the current status of this memorial. If you have any questions or comments Ian will be happy to address them.

Quote:
Mains Memorial Resume 11th October 2010

When concerns were raised by various interested people about the state of this memorial I decide that I would try to do something about it. After speaking to others I decided it would be best if we formed a committee to tackle Dundee Council who is responsible for the care of the memorial. The committee consisted of me, George Webster of St Andrews University, Bob Paterson a local resident and chairman of the Dundee Branch of the Western Front association and Tom Mccluskey, ex CSM of the Black Watch and chairman of the Angus Black Watch association. Besides the associations represented by Bob and Tom we also had the mandate to represent the members of the GWF , this forum and several other interested individuals. We contacted the Editor of the Dundee Courier and suggested that they take a look at the memorial. The next day an article appeared with pictures and quotes from, amongst others, Bob Paterson and Bob Duncan of Dundee Council. One comment made made by Bob Duncan about demolishing the structure and putting a plaque with the names of the men on the wall of the nearby Castle alarmed us. In order to prevent this happening before there was a chance for debate, we contacted Historic Scotland to see if it was worthy of listing. This immediately prevented the council doing anything to it while HS made up their mind about listing.

We contacted the council and a meeting was set up for the 5th May 2009. Before this, the members of our committee got together to decide what the actual aims were to be and to make sure that we would present a united front. We eventually decided on the following;

    The option of a plaque replacing the memorial was a non starter

    Given its exposed location the memorial should be moved to a more protected location

    The memorial should be fully restored to its original condition


At the first meeting between our group and the council, which included the convenor responsible, the director of the parks and leisure department and the head of Parks, Sport and Leisure, we obtained a commitment that the memorial would not be demolished. This was confirmed in a subsequent e-mail from the convenor. We were asked if we could be willing to provide any of the funding but we declined and informed the council that we thought that it was their responsibility. The council also agreed to obtain rough estimates for the cost of the work involved and look at probable sites for the relocation of the memorial. A chain of communication was agreed and a proposed date for a subsequent meeting when the costs and a short list of suitable new locations for the memorial would be presented. After the meeting we took it upon ourselves to independently get the work priced so that we would have an idea if the figure that the council would eventually come up with would be accurate.

We would meet with the council several more times before Christmas 2009 and after a lot of discussion about the new location we had an understanding with them that the Memorial would be re-located in the grounds of the nearby castle, in a dedicated area, which would be landscaped accordingly. Some individuals within our own group were not entirely convinced with this solution but eventually we agreed that it represented the best opportunity of protecting the structure against future vandalism. One of the flies in this particular ointment was that the castle had a tenant who leased it from the council and operated it as a wedding venue. We had a meeting with them, which was attended by the council’s legal department, and eventually they agreed to the proposal.
At Christmas time the council still had not heard from Historic Scotland as to whether they would list it or not and therefore they could not go out to tender to contractors for the work. Our Group contacted HS and were told that it was likely that it would be listed as it is a reasonably unique structure. The decision was to be made by the 14th Jan 2010.We were happy about this as H.S. would help fund any renovation to a certain point and therefore, in our opinion, help remove any future argument for not carrying out the work using a lack of fund s as an excuse. We also took the opportunity to establish Historic Scotland’s view on the memorial being moved in order to protect it and it seemed to us that they would look on it favourably.

True to their word the memorial was listed but about the same time the tenant of Mains Castle decided that they didn’t now want the hassle of accommodating the memorial after all, so it was back to the drawing board and the search for a suitable location continued.
After looking around we proposed re-siting it in Caird Park stadium and a plan was drawn up. The council suggested that before submitting the plan for permission we arrange a meeting with Historic Scotland to establish their views on moving it because the feedback they were getting was contrary to the impression that our group had from our own discussions from HS. By this time the council was on board with this, that the money was available and that there was a real desire for this work to be completed. Dates for a re-dedication were discussed enthusiastically with the favourites being the 25th September and a fall back date of 11th November 2010.

A meeting was convened with HS which was attended by individuals from the council’s technical, conservation and legal departments and members from our own group. The person who turned up from Historic Scotland was not our original contact and it was immediately evident that she was completely un- briefed. She did not seem sympathetic to the memorial’s primary function which is, after all, to commemorate the men inscribed upon it, but seemed more taken with its setting and its allusion to “Elysian Fields”. She actually did not seem to mind the state it was in and we got the impression that she seemed to think that the dilapidated condition added to the charm of the structure. We took her up to the proposed new location and explained our thinking behind moving it. Somebody quite cleverly pointed out that by placing it in a sports arena this would continue the classical “Elysian Field” connection. After the HS representative left we agreed with the council that they would submit a plan for permission which included its repositioning in the sports arena. There is also a backup plan for its renovation in its original position with a hard standing area around it and a fence with which we are not entirely comfortable.

In July, despite promptings on a monthly basis, we were concerned that we had heard nothing and we wrote to the council. After a while they confirmed that the application had been submitted at the beginning of that month to HS and an answer was expected by the end of September. Half way through September we again contacted the council and urged them to inject some sort of urgency into the situation. We were informed that HS was still sitting on the decision and as it was now evident that the work could not now be completed by the 11th Nov we were offered the interim solution that the memorial would be cleaned up and the broken tablet which is inscribed with the names be replaced with a temporary plaque. We refused this in the sure-fire belief that a temporary repair may quite quickly transform into being the permanent solution. Alert to the way things were going we contacted our original contact in Historic Scotland to ask what stage the application had reached and when we could expect a decision. Two weeks ago we received a reply from him telling us that he was not involved with this application now but he promised to find out the current situation and get back to us. He e-mailed me last week giving us the name of the person now handling the case but very little other information. We have written to the council indicating that as the original group responsible for involving HS we intend to contact HS asking for a firm answer as to when a decision will be made on the application. The council have responded welcoming our intention and urging us to engage with Historic Scotland so that the whole matter can be resolved.
We will continue to keep the readers of the forum appraised of developments as they happen.

Ian Robertson 11th October 2010
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Murray



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ian,

Well done for all the time and effort you are putting into this.

During a search for something completely different, I came across this.

Not very accurate and a bit dreamy.

http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/sc-51412-mains-parish-wwi-black-watch-memorial-cai
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Ian Robertson



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 24
Location: Broughty Ferry

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murray,

Thanks for your comments. Dreamy would be exactly my description of HS attitude to this. There is no doubt that the memorial sits in a great location and under ideal circumstances it would be where we would wish to have it but it is very exposed to abuse. We seemed to have great difficulty getting this through to the HS representative that attended the meeting. Speaking to the tenants of the nearby Mains Castle it would seem that they are under constant siege from the the local kids..and that's despite having walls 20ft high in some places.

regards

Ian
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Adam Brown
Curator


Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 7312
Location: Edinburgh (From Sutherland)

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The British Listed Buildings website cites Historic Scotland as the source of its data but I can't find the Mains War Memorial on the Historic Scotland website

http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/index/heritage/historicandlistedbuildings.htm

Thanks

Adam
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ADP



Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 467
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Adam,

http://hsewsf.sedsh.gov.uk/hslive/hsstart?P_HBNUM=51412

ADP
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David McNay
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yet another (incorrect) mention of it being a Black Watch memorial.
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Ian Robertson



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 24
Location: Broughty Ferry

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

David McNay wrote:
Yet another (incorrect) mention of it being a Black Watch memorial.

I can't tell you how many times we have told people (HS, Council, press) that it is not exclusively a Black watch memorial.
I wrote to the person in Historic Scotland who is dealing with the council's application on Monday night asking when we could expect their decision. So far she has not eplied. I'll give her a full week and if I still haven't heard from her I'll take it up with her superiors.

regards

Ian
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George Armstrong Custer



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Through hard work and much investment of time, the local team of interested parties in the Dundee are put together by Ian Robertson appeared to be well on the way to success. Dundee Council had accepted responsibility for the Mains memorial in Caird Park, and had allocated funds for its restoration and relocation to a suitable nearby secure location. All we have been waiting for was approval of Dundee City's planning application for the listed monument submitted to Historic Scotland. It was Ian and his Dundee group's initiative which had achieved the listed status from Historic Scotland for the immediate protection of the monument. It seems that all of the hard work may be undone at the last minute, however.

Inexplicably, one of the Moderators of this forum has taken it upon himself to independently alert London-based charity the War Memorials Trust to the fact that Dundee Council had submitted the planning application to Historic Scotland. Despite the lines of communication between the Scottish War Memorials Project site and Ian's group, no one thought it right to run this past the local Dundee action group first. As it is, a woman of uncertain qualification from the War Memorials Trust, on the basis of information passed by an Mod from this forum, has submitted the only objection to Dundee Councils planning application to Historic Scotland. The lady from the War Memorials Trust who wrote the objection admits that she's never conducted a site visit to the Dundee memorial, and is therefore entirely unfamiliar with the very real ongoing threat to the memorial in its current isolated position which is accessible to feral gangs from a nearby problem housing estate. As the Mod involved from this forum is not local to the area either, the same lack of awareness of the specific local social problems which threaten the memorial must be applied. Both Dundee Council, and Ian's local action group are acutely aware of these issues, however.

Despite the fact of the objection draughted by the War Memorial Trust being little more than a stock letter objecting to any memorial being moved or having its original fabric replaced where necessary, and with no specific application to the specific difficulties facing the Mains memorial, Historic Scotland seem minded to give undue weight to the opinion of this unofficial body. Headed paper, unfortunately, often carries an unwarranted authority. What on earth the Mod from this forum who reported to the London-based War Memorials Trust was thinking of is anybodies guess. As an outsider to the area, he seems to have pursued his own agenda without the courtesy of consultation with the local groups who have been active in getting the memorial saved over the past 18 months. Further, photographs taken by this Mod (whose identity I am aware of) in recent weeks have been forwarded by the War Memorials Trust to Historic Scotland, where they have been used as the basis for the ludicrous assertion that there has been no further vandalism to the memorial over the past 18 months. Those of us local to it know different. This individual's independent actions look likely to jeopardise all the progress which has been achieved just at the moment when it was about to come to fruition. Well done that man.

George
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